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Mossad Chief: Israel becoming a burden for the USA

It is illegal to maintain any occupation when there is no military threat. The peace treaty with Jordan ended the military threat.

Therefore any occupation in any form is criminal.
We're making progress. Jordan signed an agreement of non-belligerency, as did Egypt. The PA has not.

Capiche?

So you're stating that PLO/Fatah hasn't been a military threat since post-'67? And neither is Hamas since 1987? Good to know.
 
one hopes this is short enough to satisfy any roving moderator
...
How does this address your claim that Yassin was just another guy in a wheelchair skit? Do you deny that he was in a wheelchair since he was 12? That he didn't form Hamas in 1987 with Rantissi?

King of deflections...

Posting the brunt of an essay with '...' in between doesn't quite cut it Matt. Posting the essay of CT'er Richard Sale, of which the first hit from this article is PrisonPlanet.com , of a subject that has been addressed also in detail (as opposed to the half-baked attempt of Sale who has a tendency of questionable sourcing practices), also doesn't quite help your position.

Perhaps stick to a topic?
 
We're making progress. Jordan signed an agreement of non-belligerency, as did Egypt. The PA has not.

How can a non-state actor make sovereign agreements of that kind? You need a state before you can go around signing treaties. I thought the whole point of the so-called peace process was that Palestine gets a state and Israel gets its peace?
 
How can a non-state actor make sovereign agreements of that kind? You need a state before you can go around signing treaties. I thought the whole point of the so-called peace process was that Palestine gets a state and Israel gets its peace?
If we were talking about the 19th century in the traditional sense of international law, then I would tend to agree with you, however, (armed) non-state actors in the 20th century have managed to "upgrade their status...and that these individuals have international rights and obligations" as seen in this interesting paper addressing this very issue:
(be aware, you have to d/l a pdf file)
The Rights and Responsibilities of Armed Non-State Actors: The Legal Landscape & Issues Surrounding Engagement

This paper addresses the issue that (armed) non-state actors have the ability to create agreements with state actors, ie Israel and non-belligerecy agreements between the PA/Hamas/etc., and is applicable with internatonal law on par with agreements and obligations between state actors. The PA and Hamas are government parties, where the PLO declared itself the representative of the Palestinian people from back in Arafat's day as well as administrating control over parts of the WB and recently, Hamas's control of Gaza. These make the PLO/PA and Hamas ‘each Party to the conflict’ and capable of making agreements, which include non-belligerency agreements, with state-actors such as Israel, Jordan, Egypt, etc. and bound by international law.

The paper goes into more detail and is an overall interesting read...
 
We're making progress. Jordan signed an agreement of non-belligerency, as did Egypt. The PA has not.

Capiche?

So you're stating that PLO/Fatah hasn't been a military threat since post-'67? And neither is Hamas since 1987? Good to know.

Lets see, Israel has nukes. The PA has a third rate police force.

Where is the threat?

What does any of it have to do with the criminals and their squattertowns?

Four of the criminals were just killed in Hebron. Just think, they would be alive if they had been in Israel where they belong.
 
How does this address your claim that Yassin was just another guy in a wheelchair skit? Do you deny that he was in a wheelchair since he was 12? That he didn't form Hamas in 1987 with Rantissi?

King of deflections...

No. A deflection is saying, We are all Klinghoffers now.

Posting the brunt of an essay with '...' in between doesn't quite cut it Matt. Posting the essay of CT'er Richard Sale, of which the first hit from this article is PrisonPlanet.com , of a subject that has been addressed also in detail (as opposed to the half-baked attempt of Sale who has a tendency of questionable sourcing practices), also doesn't quite help your position.

Perhaps stick to a topic?

Background on a subject it necessary to talk about a subject.

Israel was instrumental in aiding Yassin in founding Hamas.
 
Lets see, Israel has nukes. The PA has a third rate police force.

Where is the threat?

Are you suggesting that Israel should nuke Palestinians for suicide bombings and rocket launches into civilian centers? That it would be a reasonable response?

Or are you suggesting that a few dead Jews, here and there, are not a problem?
 
Lets see, Israel has nukes. The PA has a third rate police force.

Where is the threat?

What does any of it have to do with the criminals and their squattertowns?
So more detractions. PA doesn't have a 'third rate police force'. Actually, quite the contrary compared to the standard around the ME and Africa.

Oh, didn't see the nuke angle coming.

Four of the criminals were just killed in Hebron. Just think, they would be alive if they had been in Israel where they belong.
Thanks for the golden egg. A pregnant woman is now considered a criminal because she lives in Hebron, one of the places continuously settled by Jews.

Nice try on the trolling though. You're not going to get the vociferous response you were hoping for. Just pity for you and the sheer insignificance in any forum your post in...
 
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No. A deflection is saying, We are all Klinghoffers now.
Yassin was in a wheelchair since he was 12, didn't prevent him from creating Hamas with Rantissi in 1987. You reply about Hamas being created by Israel by providing a piece by a well-known CT'er.

Pretty evident that this is a deflection and more hopeless peddling.

Background on a subject it necessary to talk about a subject.

Israel was instrumental in aiding Yassin in founding Hamas.
Already discussed. Ignored in usual fashion.

Israel allowed the Gaza branch of the Muslim Brotherhood to gather aid from outside Gaza, via 'zakat' from the Muslim Brotherhood chapters (especially in Egypt) and government funding from the Islamic uhmmah overall, to create social programs, build schools, improve town/city infrastructure, etc. Not build a terrorist infrastructure which was done leading up to the first intifada in 1987, and neither was there a case to prove that Hamas headed towards militant Islamism when it was still a branch of the Muslim Brotherhood.

The CTer's article that you posted makes the unfounded and baseless connection to this allowance for external aid by Israel to translate to building up Hamas as a terrorist organization.

ie: Hamas: The Organizations, Goals and Tactics of a Militant Palestinian Organization

So if you want, provide actual background information and what the argument is against allowing funding to groups like the Muslim Brotherhood to establish stability back in the 60's, 70's and 80's, when there wasn't a declared path to militant Islamism, compared to allowing a corrupt group like the PLO under Arafat, to continue to squander any and all peace initiatives, and embezzle billions in foreign aid.

Other countries did this in the region as well before militant Islamism reared its ugly head and in some cases, continue to do so hoping that this would finally stabilize the region.

Rebuttal to this and the issue of Yassin being in a wheelchair since he was 12...
 
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The only equivalent term I know of in English is "by inspection" which is a term of art in math which most people will not understand in its technical meaning.

Are you intent upon publicly feigning ignorance at the risk of people really believing you are ignorant?

I'm very comfortable with whatever conclusions people draw when comparing you and I.
 
How can a non-state actor make sovereign agreements of that kind?

Why?

You need a state before you can go around signing treaties.

Where does it say that?

I thought the whole point of the so-called peace process was that Palestine gets a state and Israel gets its peace?

That's one model. The favored one for the past couple decades. Other models include a single state that adopts the Palestinians as its citizens, another model is a bi-national state, which essentially has two governments sharing the same territory.
 
Are you suggesting that Israel should nuke Palestinians for suicide bombings and rocket launches into civilian centers? That it would be a reasonable response?

Are you saying a third rate police force is a threat to Israel?

Or are you suggesting that a few dead Jews, here and there, are not a problem?

No more of a problem than a few dozens of murdered Palestinians are to jewish Israelis.
 
So more detractions. PA doesn't have a 'third rate police force'. Actually, quite the contrary compared to the standard around the ME and Africa.

The comparison is of course to the police of Israel and you claim the Palestinian police is a sufficient threat to Israel to justify the military occupation in any form.

Oh, didn't see the nuke angle coming.

You said the non-Jews in the West Bank are a threat to the existence of Israel as nothing else could possibly consider a justification for the criminal occupation.

Thanks for the golden egg. A pregnant woman is now considered a criminal because she lives in Hebron, one of the places continuously settled by Jews.

Only in the Torah could pregnancy remove a person's status as a criminal.

If the four (five?) of them had been in Israel where they belong they would still be alive. Why is that so hard for you to understand? The pregnant one deliberately put her fetus at risk. Call it abuse.

Nice try on the trolling though. You're not going to get the vociferous response you were hoping for. Just pity for you and the sheer insignificance in any forum your post in...

I merely gave an example of the consequences of being a criminal. I also observed it was their own damned fault they are dead. They made themselves lawful targets under international law.
 
Yassin was in a wheelchair since he was 12, didn't prevent him from creating Hamas with Rantissi in 1987. You reply about Hamas being created by Israel by providing a piece by a well-known CT'er.

Pretty evident that this is a deflection and more hopeless peddling.

You have forgotten who Klinghoffer was. I was drawing attention to the hypocrisy of whining over Klinghoffer because he was in a wheelchair and the specifically identified crime in the 4th Geneva Convention of murder without trial and normal legal protections.

Already discussed. Ignored in usual fashion.

Because it is unarguable blowtorch is a bitch.

As the article observed jewish Israelis are often their own worst enemies.

Or one can credit them with being intelligent and intending to create people who will resist the israeli occupation so they can claim a justification for the criminal occupation.
 
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The comparison is of course to the police of Israel and you claim the Palestinian police is a sufficient threat to Israel to justify the military occupation in any form.
So what of the Israeli police? They are also better than Jordanian, Syrian and Egyptian police. The PA police has made great strides in the past decade especially with the death of Arafat and those who were sidelined in the 1991 Madrid peace conference being at the helm of the PA government. Its not perfect, but better than it was under Arafat's control.

The PA police control PA administered areas, not the IDF.

You said the non-Jews in the West Bank are a threat to the existence of Israel as nothing else could possibly consider a justification for the criminal occupation.
Never said that. Point out where I did.

Only in the Torah could pregnancy remove a person's status as a criminal.
Back to the Torah. This isn't a religious argument, no matter how much you want to turn it into one. You stated that these Israelis that were killed were criminals. Point out how.

I merely gave an example of the consequences of being a criminal. I also observed it was their own damned fault they are dead. They made themselves lawful targets under international law.
This is a terrorist attack against civilians. That's where criminality comes into play.

I find this hilarious, how are civilians, no matter how much you disagree with these Israelis being situated in a settlement near Kiyat Arba/Hebron, are 'lawful targets'.

Give an example from the laws pertaining to war, as in quote it.
 
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You have forgotten who Klinghoffer was. I was drawing attention to the hypocrisy of whining over Klinghoffer because he was in a wheelchair and the specifically identified crime in the 4th Geneva Convention of murder without trial and normal legal protections.
Leon Klinghoffer was an American civilian (who happened to be Jewish) hijacked on a cruise liner off the Egyptian coast. Point out where he established a terrorist organization and committed acts of perify and terrorism against civilian targets.

So Yassin, head of a terrorist organization and committing acts of terror against civilians is the same as a Jewish American tourist taking a cruise.

Your strawman are laughable at best.

Because it is unarguable blowtorch is a bitch.

As the article observed jewish Israelis are often their own worst enemies.

Or one can credit them with being intelligent and intending to create people who will resist the israeli occupation so they can claim a justification for the criminal occupation.
Rhetoric and same deflections.

Seriously, is this the best you got?
 
So what of the Israeli police? They are also better than Jordanian, Syrian and Egyptian police. The PA police has made great strides in the past decade especially with the death of Arafat and those who were sidelined in the 1991 Madrid peace conference being at the helm of the PA government. Its not perfect, but better than it was under Arafat's control.

The PA police control PA administered areas, not the IDF.

I said I find your claim this third rate police is a threat to Israel absurd. I might add I find it a pitiful excuse to continue its criminal occupation.

Never said that. Point out where I did.

You justified the occupation because of the threat from the Palestinians in the West Bank. I described that threat correctly. Therefore that is what you consider a threat to the existence of Israel. Why do you not understand the consequences of what you say?

Back to the Torah. This isn't a religious argument, no matter how much you want to turn it into one. You stated that these Israelis that were killed were criminals. Point out how.

They are criminals because they live in an area under the protection of a military force which is illegally occupying that area. After WWII the penalty was a forced march back to Germany with the clothes on their backs. You did not know that?

Read the fine convention some day. Take the risk of learning something.

This is a terrorist attack against civilians. That's where criminality comes into play.

It was the simple murder of criminals. It does not rise to terrorism.

I find this hilarious, how are civilians, no matter how much you disagree with these Israelis being situated in a settlement near Kiyat Arba/Hebron, are 'lawful targets'.

Give an example from the laws pertaining to war, as in quote it.

The right to resist occupation is lawful. The right to use deadly force against the occupiers is lawful. Everything the resistance movements did in WWII was retroactively made lawful by international treaty. How did you miss that? Or do you consider the participants in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising to have been criminals too? They invented the grenade in the empty baby carriage trick. And when the Germans caught on and asked to see the baby first they started using their own babies.

You keep pretending like the Geneva convention does not exist yet the entire context of it was to address all the atrocities of Germany during WWII while precluding any exceptions. Sabotage of civilian facilities in Germany with dead civilians was made lawful. So also is killing Israeli civilians when participating in the criminal occupation.

So it gets back to the beginning. End the occupation as it has not had any military justification since the peace treaty with Jordan even though it was implemented in a criminal manner at that time because of the criminal squatters.
 
Leon Klinghoffer was an American civilian (who happened to be Jewish) hijacked on a cruise liner off the Egyptian coast. Point out where he established a terrorist organization and committed acts of perify and terrorism against civilian targets.

So Yassin, head of a terrorist organization and committing acts of terror against civilians is the same as a Jewish American tourist taking a cruise.

Your strawman are laughable at best.

As you know from the Geneva convention killing anyone in the occupied territories without trial and the protections of law is murder. Israel murdered the Yassin. It was Israel that aided him personally in establishing Hamas.

Rhetoric and same deflections.

Seriously, is this the best you got?

I have only the 4th Geneva Convention on my side. Against you is your apparent inability to read it.
 
Matt- the Israeli occupation of the West Bank is legal. It is legal because Jordan gave up ALL responsibility and rights to the land in 1987. They gave it to the PLO.

Now its up to the PLO/PA and Israel to negotiate the final status of the West Bank.
 
I said I find your claim this third rate police is a threat to Israel absurd. I might add I find it a pitiful excuse to continue its criminal occupation.
Never said the police was a threat to Israel. Its the terrorist elements within the WB, be it Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Hezbollah, Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, etc. who have attacked Israelis in Israel proper and in these settlement blocs. But somehow you interpreted this to mean that I was referring to a threat of traffic police? Nice one.

Once there's a non-belligerency agreement signed and terrorist organizations are quelled in the WB by the PA and the IDF, then there would be no need for Israel to reside, apart from the settlement blocs with the land swaps, in the West bank.

Capiche? Finally?

You justified the occupation because of the threat from the Palestinians in the West Bank. I described that threat correctly. Therefore that is what you consider a threat to the existence of Israel. Why do you not understand the consequences of what you say?
You can keep stating this in many different ways, but I'm still going to ask you to source this, as in where did I state this?

Cease with the fairy tales.

They are criminals because they live in an area under the protection of a military force which is illegally occupying that area. After WWII the penalty was a forced march back to Germany with the clothes on their backs. You did not know that?
Source where an area residing within a voided armistice line that was previously under occupation by another country illegal to reside in.

Read the fine convention some day. Take the risk of learning something.
Learn to source and stop pretending that you've read it yourself ;)

It was the simple murder of criminals. It does not rise to terrorism.


The right to resist occupation is lawful. The right to use deadly force against the occupiers is lawful. Everything the resistance movements did in WWII was retroactively made lawful by international treaty. How did you miss that? Or do you consider the participants in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising to have been criminals too? They invented the grenade in the empty baby carriage trick. And when the Germans caught on and asked to see the baby first they started using their own babies.
Source the laws of war/engagement, Roman statutes, GC, anything that supports the attack against civilians even within what is declared to be within the future Palestinian state? Presumably this will be Judenfrei as well.

Warsaw ghetto now eh? Running thin on weak correlations? This correlation still doesn't miraculously turn civilians into 'lawful targets' either.

You keep pretending like the Geneva convention does not exist yet the entire context of it was to address all the atrocities of Germany during WWII while precluding any exceptions. Sabotage of civilian facilities in Germany with dead civilians was made lawful. So also is killing Israeli civilians when participating in the criminal occupation.
If you know the GC's so well, how about sourcing specifically rather than repeating the same drivel over and over.

Quote where civilians are 'lawful targets'.

So it gets back to the beginning. End the occupation as it has not had any military justification since the peace treaty with Jordan even though it was implemented in a criminal manner at that time because of the criminal squatters.
No we aren't. You simply repeat the same drivel ignoring anything written previously, skipping and hopping over responses to shoot holes through these half-baked responses of yours.

Quite amusing the liberal use of the term, 'criminal' though. Still can't end any form of occupation without an agreement from each party in the conflict, in this case the Israelis and Palestinians.

Provide an example where this hasn't been the case....
 

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