Split Thread Mormons and marriage

[RandFan]

What is the big deal? So Mormons are consistently behind the times on civil rights issues, they receive revelations when their beliefs become sufficiently politically inconvenient, so I figure in 30 years or so they will all change their tune on gay marriage.

I mean they only accepted black people as being equal in 1979 so we can't expect them to not be trailing on civil rights.

I was an active Mormon in 1979. I remember when it was announced. Thing is, no "thus sayeth the lord" was addended AFAIK. Which for many Mormons is requisite to determine if the Prophet is giving his own opinion or god's. I know people who left the Church when that happened. And BTW: some of my ancestors left the Church when Polygamy was repealed. I'm a descendant of polygamists.

I agree with you. Many times the Church changes to catch up. It will eventually have to change with this also. The trend is so dramatic that the day will come in the not so very distant future when most everyone will see the Church as immoral, just as they would easily see them today if the Church discriminated against blacks as they did prior to 1979.

 

[I Ratant]

It wasn't my attempt to address each individual example, and argue which is legitimate and which is not. I was merely responding to the apparent argument, of logic similar to “How can you possibly object to assault, when theft is something that has also happens?”

Homosexuality—especially when used as the basis for a fraudulent mockery of marriage—is immoral, disordered, and wholly against the laws of God and nature. That other activities may take place that are similarly immoral is completely irrelevant to this fact.

That one kind of evil takes place is not, in the least, an argument that some other form of evil isn't evil.

.
Your first problem.
There is no god to have any laws for or against anything.
As for the immorality, if you don't like it, don't do it.
Morals are personal.
Disordered? No more so than the 50% of the fundy marriages that fail every year, and these are ordained in heaven!
By your god.
So much for that idea.

 

[I Ratant]

What is the big deal? So Mormons are consistently behind the times on civil rights issues, they receive revelations when their beliefs become sufficiently politically inconvenient, so I figure in 30 years or so they will all change their tune on gay marriage.

I mean they only accepted black people as being equal in 1979 so we can't expect them to not be trailing on civil rights.

.
Be patient.
That revelation stuff takes some time to make itself known.
It'll happen.

 

[RandFan]

.
Your first problem.
There is no god to have any laws for or against anything.
As for the immorality, if you don't like it, don't do it.
Morals are personal.
Disordered? No more so than the 50% of the fundy marriages that fail every year, and these are ordained in heaven!
By your god.
So much for that idea.

Yeah, I have a problem with "it's against god".

• Blood transfusions are against god --Jehovah's Witnesses
• Eating pork is against god --Seventh Day Adventists
• Women showing their face is against god --Islam
• Drinking coffee is against god --Mormon
• Eating shellfish is against god --Jewish
• Eating Beef is against god --Hindu

Yes I do know that many of these are shared but none are inclusive of all religions. How the hell do these people know what is against god? Can't we leave superstition and mythology out of public life? What you think is sacred is fine with me just keep it to yourself. Okay, you have the right to free speech and the right to influence public policy but can't the rest of us agree that religious prescriptions have no bearing on public policy?

Would Mormons really like it if they couldn't get transfusions because of JW beliefs? Would Mormons consent to the food prohibitions of the Jews? What the hell is going on with marriage? Can you say special pleading?

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

1. Polygamy?
2. Polygamy by coercion and deception?

As a mormon, I find the three biggest problems in discussing the church with outsiders are convincing people that:

1.) It's not spelled "morman"
2.) The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is Christian
3.) This is not the year 1889

 

[RandFan]

But I think they are significant for the following reasons.

They exist in large part because Mormonism elevated polygamy to such a high status.

The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. --Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, pg. 269.

Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned; and I will go still further, and say that this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord had given, and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned. --Brigham Young, Deseret News, November 14, 1855.

God has told us Latter-day Saints that we shall be condemned if we do not enter into that principle; and yet I have heard now and then... a brother or sister say, 'I am a Latter-day Saint, but I do not believe in polygamy! Oh, what an absurd expression! What an absurd idea! A person might as well say, 'I am a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ, but I do not believe in him.'… The Lord has said that those who reject this principle reject their salvation, they shall be damned, saith the Lord... --Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 17, p. 224-225.

There is much more. A significant (but not exhaustive) list of quotes by various Mormon prophets on the importance of Polygamy that is in direct contradiction to current church policies can be found at the following link:
Polygamy and Eternal Marriage

As a mormon, I find the three biggest problems in discussing the church with outsiders are convincing people that:

3.) This is not the year 1889

As a former Mormon, one of the biggest problems I have is getting Mormons to answer questions. There is a Mormon philosophy that it's better to be duplicitous or evasive if it furthers god's plan of salvation.

1. Are the quotes in my previous post above correct?
2. Is polygamy still part of Mormon theology (even if it is not practiced)?
3. Are acts of duplicity, deception and evasion intellectually honest?
4. Why use logic and reason if you only use it selectively?
5. Who is the father of ALL lies?

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Is polygamy still part of Mormon theology (even if it is not practiced)?

Yes, it is. Those in polygamous marriages prior to 1890 are still considered to have had all their I's dotted and T's crossed, spiritually speaking. And in round about ways is still practiced. A man whose wife passes away and then remarries is considered to be sealed to both spouses and will be with them both in the hereafter.

However, for all practical pourposes, the practice of polygamy has come to an end in the largest sect of the latter-day saint movement.

Who is the father of ALL lies?

Jimmy Carter.

 

[RandFan]

Yes, it is. Those in polygamous marriages prior to 1890 are still considered to have had all their I's dotted and T's crossed, spiritually speaking. And in round about ways is still practiced. A man whose wife passes away and then remarries is considered to be sealed to both spouses and will be with them both in the hereafter.

However, for all practical pourposes, the practice of polygamy has come to an end in the largest sect of the latter-day saint movement.

Jimmy Carter.

Thank you for being evasive and proving my point. I mean seriously, how could I have possibly guessed that you would do EXACTLY that?

1. Are the quotes in my previous post above correct?
2. Is polygamy still part of Mormon theology (even if it is not practiced)?
3. Are acts of duplicity, deception and evasion intellectually honest?
4. Why use logic and reason if you only use it selectively?
5. Who is the father of ALL lies?

So, one question down, 1 evaded with humor and the rest ignored. Pat yourself on the back. Milk before meat is still a basis for lying, even if it is by omission or a refusal to answer a direct question.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I did answer one of yours, now you can answer one of mine.

How many years ago did the earthly practice of polygamy come to an end in the SLC-based branch of mormonism?

 

[Thrasher]

I did answer one of yours, now you can answer one of mine.

How many years ago did the earthly practice of polygamy come to an end in the SLC-based branch of mormonism?

Are there any jurisdictions in which polygamy is legal where the Mormans (tee hee) living there do not practice polygamy? I believe it's legal in Nigeria. Do the missionaries practice it there?

Do you think that if the USA made it legal that the church would maintain its current stance?

 

[RandFan]

I did answer one of yours, now you can answer one of mine.

Proving me correct. Again, I thank you.

BTW: It would be unfair of me to admit that many Mormons I know are not evasive. I know Mormons that I could ask these questions of right now and they, without hesitation would answer each and everyone and do so honestly. This includes members of my family and some very close friends. And I'm talking about members in good faith. I apologize if my claim made it appear that this was not the case. My claim is about a subculture of Mormonism spurred on by various beliefs and teaching of leaders.

How many years ago did the earthly practice of polygamy come to an end in the SLC-based branch of mormonism?

Changing the subject. Another evasive maneuver. Well played. And again, I thank you.

That question can't be answered. There was an official end and there were many leaders and members who continued with the practice without being punished or excommunicated by the Church. There is no single delineation point.

1. Are the quotes in my previous post above correct?
2. Is polygamy still part of Mormon theology (even if it is not practiced)?
3. Are acts of duplicity, deception and evasion intellectually honest?
4. Why use logic and reason if you only use it selectively?
5. Who is the father of ALL lies?

Still waiting.

 

[RandFan]

As a mormon, I find the three biggest problems in discussing the church with outsiders are convincing people that:

1.) It's not spelled "morman"

I did answer one of yours, now you can answer one of mine.

How many years ago did the earthly practice of polygamy come to an end in the SLC-based branch of mormonism?

Some people have a difficult time getting Mormons to capitalize the words "Mormon" and "Mormonism".

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

RandFan, try looking in a mirror sometime.

As I said, it is very difficult to convince people that this is not the 1800s when it comes to the Mormon church and polygamy. I do not see the point in Bob or I being demanded to defend an activity that would get either of us kicked out of church if we engaged in it.

Your own evasiveness and refusal to face facts is duly noted.

Pot, kettle, black, throwing rocks in glass houses, et cetera, et cetera...

 

[Matthew Best]

Mormonism? That's one of them made-up religions, isn't it?

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Are there any jurisdictions in which polygamy is legal where the Mormans (tee hee) living there do not practice polygamy?

Yes.

There's a story that I have heard that is probably a mormon urban legend about a polygamous polynesian cheiftan who wants to join the church. He has been told, or so the story goes, to honor his commitments to all his wives and that he will be baptised and his wives sealed to him upon his death

I believe it's legal in Nigeria.

Not for long, the queen of Nigeria wants my help in a financial matter and she owes me a favor.

Do the missionaries practice it there?

No. Active serving missionaries are expected to devote thier time to their official duties. They aren't allowed to date, let alone marry until they return home.

Do you think that if the USA made it legal that the church would maintain its current stance?

I believe so. The church has more members outside the USA than in it so in legal terms it would take alot more than just the USA to open that door. Culturally speaking, all of the Mormons alive today have grown up in one-man, one-wife societies and attempting to bring back polygamy would be problematic to put it lightly.

 

[kerikiwi]

Culturally speaking, all of the Mormons alive today have grown up in one-man, one-wife societies and attempting to bring back polygamy would be problematic to put it lightly.

All the Mormons who joined Joseph Smith grew up in a monogamous society, but that didn't stop them

 

[bikerdruid]

deleted

 

[goodm0urning]

You can't really know what God thinks about marriage until you round up your non-perishable goods, road-trip on over to Missourah, and get raptured up to Heaven so you can personally ask Him.

Otherwise, your faith-based condemnation of homosexuals has no more validity or factual underpinning than Islam's condemnation of infidels.

 

[Thrasher]

Yes.

Details, please.

I believe so. The church has more members outside the USA than in it so in legal terms it would take alot more than just the USA to open that door. Culturally speaking, all of the Mormons alive today have grown up in one-man, one-wife societies and attempting to bring back polygamy would be problematic to put it lightly.

I think you just confirmed what Randfan has been driving at. It's still a fundamental part of the religion, but the Mormons, after fighting and losing a battle with the government and general population, figure it's better to keep it under a blanket until the winds blow the right direction.

For contrast, those religions that forbid, for example, gay marriage won't change their position if it becomes legal.

 

[RandFan]

RandFan, try looking in a mirror sometime.

I do. It's a big part of my efforts here on JREF.

As I said, it is very difficult to convince people that this is not the 1800s when it comes to the Mormon church and polygamy. I do not see the point in Bob or I being demanded to defend an activity that would get either of us kicked out of church if we engaged in it.

This is entirely irrelevant to the point at hand.

Your own evasiveness and refusal to face facts is duly noted.

What evasiveness? I answered the question in a sober and honest fashion. I didn't use some "Jimmy Carter" nonsense. There was NO delineation. I can prove that I did because even YOU can't provide a specific answer. Can you?

Pot, kettle, black, throwing rocks in glass houses, et cetera, et cetera...

I don't mind the accusation if it's true. I've done that in the past, I'm not perfect. However, your entire post is simply an attempt, once more, to be evasive. Nice try. I guess you think everyone is stupid. Why CAN'T you answer the questions.

So, for those keeping score. I have answered all questions put to me in an honest fashion and to the best of my knowledge. You?

1. Are the quotes in my previous post above correct?
2. Is polygamy still part of Mormon theology (even if it is not practiced)?
3. Are acts of duplicity, deception and evasion intellectually honest?
4. Why use logic and reason if you only use it selectively?
5. Who is the father of ALL lies?

I'm waiting. Evasion noted.