More Fun with Homeopath Dana Ullman, MPH(!)

[MRC_Hans]

Is that the best ya got? Quoting Benveniste!? If you're going to believe him now, then believe his research too. OR better, blind or not, you try doing Rey's work and see if you can create a different result just by thinking about it. Words, words, words, you got 'em. Now all you need is intelligence.

No. What we need is evidence.

As for "profits," that's a great one. The entire sales of homeopathic medicines in the US is under $300 in retail sales...or $120-$150 in wholesales sales (to the manufacturers). The largest homeopathic company grosses maybe, what, $20-$30 million...that's gross, not net. Heck, that's a pimple on a rat's arss.

One of the largest manufacturers of homeopathic remedies, Boiron, has a turnover of 398,674,000 Euro (2006), and their estimate of the total world market is 1.5 billion Euro (source: http://www.boiron.com/ )

Research, man. Research.

The point of this is that the homeopathic industry has the financial power to do proper research. Boiron could easily foot the bill for a full-scale clinical trial, that would open a far bigger share of the 500 billion pharmaceutical market to them, if it was positive.

Anybody have a guess as to why they don't do it?

If you want to talk about profits, get real. Get perspective...and once again,

Homeopathy has a rather tiny market share, but that is just a question of scale. Homeopathy is at least as profitable as conventional pharma.

get intelligence.

I suggest you cut out the insults immidiately. People here have actually been treating you quite nicely. Let's keep it that way, shall we?

Hans

 

[Mojo]

P.W. Bridgman, PhD, former professor of physics at Harvard for a couple of decades, and he is a Nobel Laureate. He wrote a book called THE PHYSICS OF HIGH ALTITUDE. He found that whenever one takes water to certain altitudes and freeze it, it freezes in a different pattern based on the high pressure of altitude.

Ehr, surely you mean low pressures?

I was wondering about this as well, but for another reason. Are homoeopathic remedies prepared at high altitude?

 

[Delusions_O_Grandeur]

Hey Delusions de Grandeur...
That's very interesting. I'm sure that water is not the only memory storage device in nature.
As for Bridgman's book...I mis-named it. It is THE PHYSICS OF HIGH PRESSURE.

If you have the book in digital form somewhere, could you give me the piece which tells about the pressure-history dependant freezing pattern of water? I can't get a hold of this book at my local library. I find the idea rather fascinating, since for as far as I know water structures are extremely short-lived (<10^-6 s). If this phenomenon is real, then water should be able to store information without forming rigid structures. I don't have high hopes though, because this should be easilly demonstrated and I never heared of it.

But since I do have the means to try this I will carry out an experiment. I have access to a vaccum pump, air tight container, distilled water and an old fashioned light microscope at the campus. I bet if I find any hint of memory at all I'll be able to use a scanning electron microscope as well.

 

[Delusions_O_Grandeur]

One of the largest manufacturers of homeopathic remedies, Boiron, has a turnover of 398,674,000 Euro (2006), and their estimate of the total world market is 1.5 billion Euro (source: http://www.boiron.com/ )
Hans

You're scaring the crap out of me. I didn't even know homeopathy was a mainstream form of medication.

They make me jealous. Why do they get all that money for selling unproven remedies while I practically kill myself in order to get my physics PhD?

-Sorry, double post!-

 

[Deetee]

One of the largest manufacturers of homeopathic remedies, Boiron, has a turnover of 398,674,000 Euro (2006), and their estimate of the total world market is 1.5 billion Euro (source: http://www.boiron.com/ )

I checked the "research" section of their site.

It said this:

In less than one decade, the conclusions from meta-analyses involving homeopathy have convinced their authors of the acceptability of homeopathic clinical trials and their positive results.

So it took nearly a decade to convince the authors of the study that their own trial was positive? ...Very persuasive, I must say.

later...

These meta-analyses highlight the perfectibility of the research conducted in homeopathy.

Yup - the best example of perfectibility I've ever seen.


ETA: to be fair, I guess something might have been lost in translation.

Which makes me recall the best example of French mistranslation I have seen for a while when we went to Euro Disney in Paris and my son went on the Manchester United training session. There was this huge sign extolling the virtues of "The Mythical Manchester United".
(They meant legendary of course)

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Please provide reference to some proving reports that use double blinding during the entire process.

Hans

Actually a serious failure is their lack of triple blinding, i.e. including the data analyst.

They set out to collect such amorphous and ill-defined data that the analyst is able to shape the interpretation any way they want: take a million random dots then express amazement that you can make pictures by joining some of them up.

What's worse is that they think they are being inclusive and expressing their holistic approach in this way so they don't even perceive that there is a problem.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

The Mythical Manchester United".
(They meant legendary of course)

Huh? I see no reason at all to believe in the existence of either Wayne Rooney or David Beckham. Victoria Beckham is quite clearly a fictional character.

And you call yourself a sceptic!

I can't remember who said it now, but, it was said of David Beckham that he could not "even grow realistic hair".

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Golders Green.

Anyone?

 

[Lothian]

Golders Green.

Anyone?

So we are playing Homeopathic MC on the Beck Organon.

If I run my finger down the repertory I see Golders Green has Kentish Town as the Simillimum

 

[malbui]

So we are playing Homeopathic MC on the Beck Organon.

If I run my finger down the repertory I see Golders Green has Kentish Town as the Simillimum

A 12X preparation of High Barnet.

 

[Mojo]

Pimlico 30C.

 

[Rolfe]

South Kensington

Rolfe.

 

[krazyKemist]

Some new research on the silicates in water provide some very provocative possibilities on how the structure in water can change and how these nano-sized "silica chips" and the nano-bubbles can influence the water.

Sure. As long as the silicates stay there. Everybody who knows a little of material science knows how the behavior at the liquid/solid interface is not the same as the one in the bulk liquid. Nothing in that work proves that water aquires 'vibrations' or whatnot and stays that way once material is removed (which is what they would have us believe for homeopathy).

As for homeopathy being used for more than 50 years, then translation would be "I'm old, so consequently, I'm right." Where would we be if that was true ?

Think I'll still be hanging on to my old chemistry and physics books for the time being.

 

[Mojo]

As for homeopathy being used for more than 50 years, then translation would be "I'm old, so consequently, I'm right."

This is sounding like "super peer review" again.

 

[Madalch]

Think I'll still be hanging on to my old chemistry and physics books for the time being.

KrazyKemist, meet Mad Alchemist. Mad Alchemist, KrazyKemist.

 

[krazyKemist]

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans
Quote:
P.W. Bridgman, PhD, former professor of physics at Harvard for a couple of decades, and he is a Nobel Laureate. He wrote a book called THE PHYSICS OF HIGH ALTITUDE. He found that whenever one takes water to certain altitudes and freeze it, it freezes in a different pattern based on the high pressure of altitude.
Ehr, surely you mean low pressures?

I was wondering about this as well, but for another reason. Are homoeopathic remedies prepared at high altitude?

Mmmm...

More importantly, are they sold frozen ? I don't know, they pretend that LIQUID water retains information...(no, entropy does not exist) What does that have to do with the different types of ice formations ?

 

[Michael C]

Testing by homeopathic proving?

James Gully, Dana Ullman, or whoever you are: I posted this question a while back but you didn't reply. I'd be very interested to know your answer: could a group of homeopaths determine the composition of a certain number of samples of different remedies (which would be labelled simply with randomly assigned code numbers) using the technique of proving?

The test could be designed to satisfy the needs of the homeopaths:

- The homeopaths would choose the substances to be used in the test: these would be substances that are considered to produce clearly-defined and easily distinguishable symptoms.

- The homeopaths would choose the people to do the provings: they could choose people that they know well (themselves included), so that they would be able to predict how these people would react to the different substances. They could do as many provings as they deem necessary.

Could the homeopaths determine which remedy was in which sample?

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

While no one is obliged to continue contributing to discussions and some of us may even have "lives" that distract us from this forum, there is also such a thing as running away...

On which appropriate note I really can play only one move:

Dagenham East

 

[Rolfe]

As in, three stops beyond Barking?

When I asked some physicyst cronies to comment on the early papers in Millgrom's "Quantum Metaphor" series, the first email I got back said simply "Dagenham East". I checked the map, and sure enough.... But now, I think they added another station or something, because Dagenham East seems to be four stops beyond Barking, and the appropriate move is now Dagenham Heathway.

Given the proximity of the place, it's the disappointment of my life that there isn't a tube station at Havering, and that it isn't three stops beyond Barking.

Hmmm, now for the countermove. Ha, I have it!

Great Portland Street (at 6X).

Now get out of that.

Rolfe.

 

[Mojo]

That would have been tricky at a higher potency, but at only 6X I am still free to play Turnham Green*.









*As a proving symptom, of course.