Moonbat alert: Chomksy condemns Bin Laden kill.

I think Joey might simply be quite young.
:rolleyes:
It's an idea that many younger people might have that the world is made up of mostly goodies and baddies. The US media comes in for a lot of (deserved) stick for painting the world as simplistically as this. However, what I do worry about is when I see some people (I'm not saying you, or necessarily Chomsky - though he does sometimes skirt that line) take this simplistic calculus and merely invert the pluses and minuses. The state propaganda of North Korea and Iran is really, really honestly far worse and far more right-wing than even a lot of the crap on US cable.

Yea, I'm clearly begging these countries to submit to the God's government for the good of us all. I'm merely pointing out that if they were truly self-interested and wanted to live they could make better choices and no one would have the motivation to screw with them. A lot of countries are going against the U.S. with economic or human rights policies but we aren't going to sanction or invade them, we try to keep a conversation going and influence them with softer tactics. Who is really the black and white simplistic thinker here?
 
I also think that while the US probably needn't maintain an embargo against Cuba anymore it seems to be quite telling that the Communist paradise in the Caribbean's biggest gripe is that the Big Bad Capitalist Bully won't do business with it. Well, why not trade with everyone else? Again, it seems that their old allies have abandoned it and not providing the aid they required anymore.

The embargo goes much further than just the United States. Any ships of any flag that port in Cuba cannot port in the United states for six months.
 
we aren't going to sanction or invade them, we try to keep a conversation going and influence them with softer tactics.

what planet are you on? What is the date on the newspapers you are reading? How can you so boldly and outright lie about what American foreign policy is like? How does the above statement in any way match reality?

Name one country that has even come close to intervening both militarily and with calls for sanctions at the UN. Name one country that has even come close to the United States, since 1989. I can think of one, and even with it's aggressions, at least THAT country truly is threatened on its borders.

Why are you making statement about what ideally the U.S. should be doing, and claiming that is what the US is doing? Perhaps ideally it should be talking and using soft power, but reality is nothing like that!
 
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You're pretty hooked on conspiracy theories, aren't you?

If a group of people is lying about and manufacturing the justifications for military spending and action in order to make a profit, that is a criminal conspiracy. What do you have against the English language being used properly? Oh that's right, you're a conspiracy theorist who finds the terms offensive.
 
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If a group of people is lying about and manufacturing the justifications for military spending and action in order to make a profit, that is a criminal conspiracy.

Sure, but you don't appear to be using the conspiracy theory sobriquet for purposes of enlightenment.

What do you have against the English language being used properly? Oh that's right, you're a conspiracy theorist who finds the terms offensive.


No, I wouldn't call myself a "conspiracy theorist". Your personalizing of the issue suggests an agenda unrelated to any desire to use the English language properly!

Complex historical, social and economic processes can be ignored when one seeks comprehend them by filtering them through a contemptuous "conspiracy theory" model. This may be attractive to the dumbed-down, reactionary mind but it rarely leads to useful insights.
 
Sure, but you don't appear to be using the conspiracy theory sobriquet for purposes of enlightenment.
It's not a nickname, it's an accurate description.
No, I wouldn't call myself a "conspiracy theorist". Your personalizing of the issue suggests an agenda unrelated to any desire to use the English language properly!
Do you believe that it's a manufactured war for oil? Than you are a conspiracy theorist, whether or not you'd call yourself one.
Complex historical, social and economic processes can be ignored when one seeks comprehend them by filtering them through a contemptuous "conspiracy theory" model. This may be attractive to the dumbed-down, reactionary mind but it rarely leads to useful insights.
So what you're saying is that we shouldn't call conspiracy theories what they are because certain people don't understand the language or abuse it? See, you never can counter the point that these things are conspiracy theories People use "conspiracy theorist" as a pejorative for beliefs and ideas that aren't conspiracy theories. But those are the people that need to quit using the phrase. More "tone troll" nonsense if you ask me.
 
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I don't think it is childishness that leads the US to not recognizing North Korea. South Korea and Japan have rather adult reasons for not recognizing the country.
Korea has been partitioned for more than half a century. To refuse to recognize that fact is plain silly, that goes for South Korea and Japan too.

North Korea does have a policy of extortion to get what it wants. The US frequently goes for half-measures by agreeing to meetings and negotiations and light-water reactors and food aid.
Then the US goes on to break the agreements it made, because of Congressional opposition. Or because the new administration doesn't want to ratify it.

Every country in the world knows North Korea is a pain. That's no reason for the US to break its promises. Just don't promise anything that might be too costly.

Maybe it would be a good idea to call Pyongyang's bluff and dangle a peace treaty in front of North Korea and see what it does. I don't have the same faith as you that it would be a case of being "done with it" though. What I suspect would happen would be an interminable process in which Kim Jong-il could make silly territorial demands that South Korea won't agree to while saying the US is grovelling on its knees before the Dear Leader.
Bolding mine.
The Korean war ended 58 years ago. Just give the North a peace treaty recognizing the status quo. What they do with it (wine or sign) is their problem.

The bolded part is the rootcause of much of the issue. The US government is scared to death of losing face. And that's stupid. Why would you care if Kim Jong-il says the US is grovelling? Nobody in the rest of the world is gonna take him seriously for it, and even if some do, it won't have any consequences.

This is actually fairly relevant to the OP as Chomsky (per Bruce Cumings) is very much of the opinion that simply doing what Pyongyang wants is the way to go to solve the Korean peninsula crisis. I don't actually have the same faith in Kim Jong-il and think he would lose his legitimacy to govern if he were to sign a full peace treaty (that's why I think it would be interesting to call his bluff).
Consider cost-benefit. Diplomatic recognition of North Korea and a peace treaty is basically free for the US. So just give it to Kim. If it works out, great. If it doesn't, it didn't cost anything anyway. And either way, it will make a good impression with China.

No. I said that there is probably no reason to embargo Cuba any longer.
Ok, we're in agreement. :)

However, what I do worry about is when I see some people (I'm not saying you, or necessarily Chomsky - though he does sometimes skirt that line) take this simplistic calculus and merely invert the pluses and minuses. The state propaganda of North Korea and Iran is really, really honestly far worse and far more right-wing than even a lot of the crap on US cable.
I think it's a little more complicated than that.

When it comes to international relations, the US is more dangerous to world peace than North Korea or Iran. For the simple reason that neither of the latter two have the ability to invade another country, without getting kicked out. But the US can go to war without worry about that. And has a proven trackrecord of doing so, even without specific Congressional approval.

Very few Westerners, if any, actually believe life in the US is worse than in North Korea or Iran. What probably happens is some people who think in complicated shades of grey get frustrated with the simple black&white crowd, and reply in simple white&black. Or the black&white crowd puts up strawmen.
 
It's not a nickname, it's an accurate description.

Do you believe that it's a manufactured war for oil? Than you are a conspiracy theorist, whether or not you'd call yourself one.

So what you're saying is that we shouldn't call conspiracy theories what they are because certain people don't understand the language or abuse it? See, you never can counter the point that these things are conspiracy theories People use "conspiracy theorist" as a pejorative for beliefs and ideas that aren't conspiracy theories. But those are the people that need to quit using the phrase. More "tone troll" nonsense if you ask me.

No, I'm saying you are not being honest about how you are using the term. As far as I can make out you are using it as a lazy put-down and little else.

ETA: ....maybe also as a thought stopper.
 
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Where did I say anything about conspiracy?
I was the one who mentioned the Afghan minerals and when I did I asked a question.
Afghanistan has a trillion dollars worth of minerals in the ground that we would like to have. Did we go to war for that stuff too?
Therefore the only logical reason you'd be posting this here would be for evidence of conspiracy since I was the only one who mentioned the minerals and then asked a question. We're trying to talk about how exactly the presence of these minerals influences decisions.

What was the purpose of you even posting that then? What do you believe about it?

No, I'm saying you are not being honest about how you are using the term. As far as I can make out you are using it as a lazy put-down and little else.

ETA: ....maybe also as a thought stopper.

You're being ridiculous, in each case, and I just bothered to go look, I was using it in reference to actual popular conspiracies. What is plainly obvious is your inability to give any evidence of this, other than what you personally feel. So, with that as evidence, I would say you just personally hate being called a conspiracy theorist and think you can win cheap points off of me by making unsubstantiated accusations. I will refuse to continue this infinitely ridiculous thread of conversation with you.
 
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I was the one who mentioned the Afghan minerals and when I did I asked a question.

Then why are you asking me for evidence to back up your conspiracy theory theories?

Therefore the only logical reason you'd be posting this here would be for evidence of conspiracy since I was the only one who mentioned the minerals and then asked a question. We're trying to talk about how exactly the presence of these minerals influences decisions.

Looking at geopolitics through the lens of "Is it a conspiracy or not" will not provide any worthwhile insights.


What was the purpose of you even posting that then? What do you believe about it?

It shows the connections between hyper violent military invasion and occupation and the subsequent exploitation of the invaded country's finite natural "resources" for profit.



You're being ridiculous, in each case, and I just bothered to go look, I was using it in reference to actual popular conspiracies. What is plainly obvious is your inability to give any evidence of this, other than what you personally feel. So, with that as evidence, I would say you just personally hate being called a conspiracy theorist and think you can win cheap points off of me by making unsubstantiated accusations. I will refuse to continue this infinitely ridiculous thread of conversation with you.

You have consistently refocussed on conspiracy theories and attempted to argue with me about them as despite my having expressing no interest in them whatsoever.

What evidence do you have that I hate being called a conspiracy theorist? I love it, especially by you! It makes me laugh :-) and reveals a lot about your mindset.

How are you able to discern what I personally feel or, indeed, that I'm am feeling anything at all?

Might my interest in world events not be intellectual as well as emotional?


'OSAMACIDE'

"JuiceMedia RapNews: episode 8. It's the end of an era. The decade which opened with a ferocious attack in the United States of America, closes with the announcement of the death of its greatest and most conveniently disney-like villain, Usama Bin Laden. In a decade which has been dominated by the Empire Strikes Back, our affable and dextrous host Robert Foster invites us to scrutinise the events shrouding the killing of this twenty first-century Goldstein":

 
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I wasn't referring to him but what would you do differently about Cuba if you were the President? They're not exactly people we want to trip over ourselves to work with.
End the embargo and normalize relations. Sanctions cost money, and trade is beneficial, even if the amounts are small for the US.

Unless sanctions serve a clear and important purpose, the default position should always be to remove them.

And that somehow negates the danger Iran currently poses to his subjects and the world?
The Iranian people revolted against the Shah. Their form of internal government is their business. And Iran is more democratic than for example Saoudi Arabia. In addition, the latter just went into Bahrain to suppress the popular revolt there.

What threat does Iran pose to the world? Iran lost 1 million people during the US-supported Iraqi invasion of their country. Despite supporting the US in the aftermath of the WTC-attacks, Iran was labelled as part of the Axis of Evil. Iran has far more reason to feel threatened by the US than any other country has to feel threatened by Iran.

But it's playing with the lives of 1-6 million people at the moment which is a crime beyond comprehension. They are a danger to the world in this way.
No point worrying about things that are outside your power to change. Deal with the things you can influence, and get the best deal out of them.

Honestly I don't believe in the "permanent war is more desirable than peace" conspiracy theory.
Just do the artithmatic. Count the number of non-defensive interventions of choice the US participated in, and compare it with those by Iran or North Korea.

The US is far more militarily aggressive than either of them.

If you could make an objective case for a path to achieving more global peace and well-being that this "hegemony" is not taking I would like to hear it. Everyone has criticisms of how things have been done in the past, but really what should be done differently in the context of now.
Stop meddling in countries where the people don't appreciate it because eventually they'll strike back, and focus on improving life at home.

You don't have to submit to the world powers to become a peaceful and economically rich nation. Just stop committing crimes against humanity and other nations. There are plenty of countries doing just fine that operate in stark contrast to what we would prefer but still pose no risk of sanctions or attack. While there may be a tendency in some quarters towards imperialism, in general the motivation is truly global peace.
It's more accurate to say that if you submit to US hegemony, then you're allowed to commit crimes against humanity and other nations. As long as you keep newscoverage to a minimum. Which is easier than it sounds, because American newsmedia don't really like to report things about allies that would make the US look bad.
Meanwhile, Egypt was widely known for torturing its prisoners. The US even sent some Iraq prisoners there for that purpose. But it was okay, because Egypt was a US-ally. It's only bad if a country from the Axis of Evil tortures its prisoners.

I think the majority of the world's people desire peace on earth nations and laws be damned.
Of course, but the problem is, most of them want peace only on their own terms. And many are willing to fight over that.

I'm for permanent improvement of military superpower out of pure logic. The existence of these entities and the presence of a vested interest doesn't prove MIHOP or LIHOP for world events, acute and sublte, long-term and short-term.
Those are stupid acronyms.

Economists have proven time and again that incentives matter. The Pentagon has an incentive to exaggerate foreign threats, because doing so will increase their funding. Defense contractors have incentive to sell weapons to questionable regimes and generally favour military intervention, because doing so makes them money.

To deny such incentives for powerful lobbies play part in US policy is delusional.
 
Then why are you asking me for evidence to back up your conspiracy theory theories?
lol wut?
Looking at geopolitics through the lens of "Is it a conspiracy or not" will not provide any worthwhile insights.
If they intentionally lied about the war in order to turn a profit, that's a conspiracy. Not everything is a conspiracy, but this is no valid criticism against me, since I don't make this mistake, as you obviously cannot show or quote, at all, what a waste of time...
It shows the connections between hyper violent military invasion and occupation and the subsequent exploitation of the invaded country's finite natural "resources" for profit.
The story being told by that article isn't one of exploitation, see the last sentence. That's your interpretation. So make a case for it because that "connection" is only being made in your mind at the moment. I asked you for the evidence of a crime here.
You have consistently refocussed on conspiracy theories and attempted to argue with me about them as despite my having expressing no interest in them whatsoever.

What evidence do you have that I hate being called a conspiracy theorist? I love it, especially by you! It makes me laugh :-) and reveals a lot about your mindset.

How are you able to discern what I personally feel or, indeed, that I'm am feeling anything at all?

Might my interest in world events not be intellectual as well as emotional?
You're taking issue with my use of the phrase with no rational basis when I clearly was not using it to malign anyone and I've seen you arguing with people about being called a truther or a CT here before so let it go you had your say.
 
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If a group of people is lying about and manufacturing the justifications for military spending and action in order to make a profit, that is a criminal conspiracy.
Oh no, lying about and manufacturing evidence is far too risky.

Though the WMD's in Iraq spring to mind.

But military spending and interventions are based on estimates. And estimates can be understated or overstated to help reach the desired conclusion, without lying. For example, we now know the cost of the JSF was underestimated, while its predicted range was overestimated.

Of course those might be honest mistakes. It could be just coincidence that two estimates made by a defense contractor both erred on the side that favoured him to sell more of the things. Just like it might be coincidence that for the past 20 years cost estimates of new aircraft have always erred on the low side.
And if you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you. Beautifully situated in the Bay of San Fransisco. Bargain price, only € 50,000.
 
End the embargo and normalize relations. Sanctions cost money, and trade is beneficial, even if the amounts are small for the US.

Unless sanctions serve a clear and important purpose, the default position should always be to remove them.
I don't think the reason it continues under Obama is that they are unaware that sanctions are bad and trade is good. All they have to do is make some very sane changes that are quite clearly outlined, Obama repeated this days ago. Castro is insane, he still believes in the revolution and that history will remember him as great.

The Iranian people revolted against the Shah. Their form of internal government is their business. And Iran is more democratic than for example Saoudi Arabia. In addition, the latter just went into Bahrain to suppress the popular revolt there.

What threat does Iran pose to the world? Iran lost 1 million people during the US-supported Iraqi invasion of their country. Despite supporting the US in the aftermath of the WTC-attacks, Iran was labelled as part of the Axis of Evil. Iran has far more reason to feel threatened by the US than any other country has to feel threatened by Iran.
You're seriously asking me what threat Iran poses to the world? :confused:
No point worrying about things that are outside your power to change. Deal with the things you can influence, and get the best deal out of them.
Are you saying it's tough luck for the North Korean people?

Just do the artithmatic. Count the number of non-defensive interventions of choice the US participated in, and compare it with those by Iran or North Korea.

The US is far more militarily aggressive than either of them.
You think the history of the world's greatest global superpower compared to a couple of backwards totalitarian nations is evidence of that conspiracy at all? I detect several fallacies.
Stop meddling in countries where the people don't appreciate it because eventually they'll strike back, and focus on improving life at home.
Wow I never thought of it like that before! Is that really the secret to peace? It makes so much sense :rolleyes:
It's more accurate to say that if you submit to US hegemony, then you're allowed to commit crimes against humanity and other nations. As long as you keep newscoverage to a minimum. Which is easier than it sounds, because American newsmedia don't really like to report things about allies that would make the US look bad.
Meanwhile, Egypt was widely known for torturing its prisoners. The US even sent some Iraq prisoners there for that purpose. But it was okay, because Egypt was a US-ally. It's only bad if a country from the Axis of Evil tortures its prisoners.
There are fair accusations of unequal treatment by the Americans, towards certain things, but there are better explanations for this other than "America is the Great Satan" They supported Hosni but now want to spend billions on Egypt et al like how they did in Eastern Europe after the wall fell to support democracy. This is proof of corruption in the eyes of some, I see it somewhat differently...

Economists have proven time and again that incentives matter. The Pentagon has an incentive to exaggerate foreign threats, because doing so will increase their funding. Defense contractors have incentive to sell weapons to questionable regimes and generally favour military intervention, because doing so makes them money.

To deny such incentives for powerful lobbies play part in US policy is delusional.

I never denied the incentives existed, I've been clamouring for clear evidence or an ironclad case for these kinds of accusations being true in specific cases.
 
Oh no, lying about and manufacturing evidence is far too risky.

Though the WMD's in Iraq spring to mind.

But military spending and interventions are based on estimates. And estimates can be understated or overstated to help reach the desired conclusion, without lying. For example, we now know the cost of the JSF was underestimated, while its predicted range was overestimated.

Of course those might be honest mistakes. It could be just coincidence that two estimates made by a defense contractor both erred on the side that favoured him to sell more of the things. Just like it might be coincidence that for the past 20 years cost estimates of new aircraft have always erred on the low side.
And if you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you. Beautifully situated in the Bay of San Fransisco. Bargain price, only € 50,000.

Those are radically different considerations from anything I was talking about. I wouldn't argue against these incentives existing and dubious estimates occuring, and have not. Strawmandering, really. The permanent war for profit conspiracy is quite different and relatively popular, I had someone spring it on me last night. Yes it also helps with their population control goals. Yes 9/11 was part of the plan for permanent war etc. There are dozens of variations on this theme.
 
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I don't think the reason it continues under Obama is that they are unaware that sanctions are bad and trade is good. All they have to do is make some very sane changes that are quite clearly outlined, Obama repeated this days ago. Castro is insane, he still believes in the revolution and that history will remember him as great.

Well, he's certainly getting on a bit now, but I think "insane" is a stretch. And as to the conditions - the political prisoners part is probably sound (though I don't know much about it), but I can't see why Obama believes that cubas internal economic system is in any way his business.

Besides, there are countries with far worse regimes that didn't face trade embargos. Chile under pinochet, argentina and brazil under their respective juntas, indonesia, bolivia, etc etc etc. The only consistant explanation is that cuba is economically too left-wing.
 

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