Moonbat alert: Chomksy condemns Bin Laden kill.

[epepke]

No, it wasn't. That was the initiating event for the invasion of Afghanistan. If you check any map you will see that "I-r-a-q" is not a alternative spelling of "A-f-g-h-a-n-i-s-t-a-n-."

9/11 had significant effects on the American people and the press which made an invasion of Iraq a much easier sell.

 

[UWdude]

Yes, because there are all white people in the army and no one in Iraq wants to kill the same people. Ridiculous racism accusation with nothing to support it. Just because the past does not mean the future.

I don't think some grunt in the sands of Iraq named Menendez decided to go with "Geronimo". Even though I have taken note of your typical reactionary attempt to hide behind one to justify your ideologies. In fact, I would bet you anything the man who came up with the brilliantly racist and insulting name was white, old, wealthy and Christian.

 

[Joey McGee]

I don't think some grunt in the sands of Iraq named Menendez decided to go with "Geronimo". Even though I have taken note of your typical reactionary attempt to hide behind one to justify your ideologies. In fact, I would bet you anything the man who came up with the brilliantly racist and insulting name was white, old, wealthy and Christian.

What's my ideology

Maybe it was a racist man who hates the Apaches, I would be sorry if that was the case But the case being made that it was more out of respect. When I weigh the realities, one seems more likely. But really honestly my first reaction was dismay because it was obviously going to be a drag on the story why wouldn't they want to avoid that?

 

[qayak]

Iraq is connected to 9/11. It showed that something needed to be done about the sick, pathetic and failed society that produces people like Bin Laden. Since Saddam failed to honour the ceasefire agreement with the US and was the filthiest, most psychopathic and brutal tyranny in the region, it was a good place to start.

9/11 had significant effects on the American people and the press which made an invasion of Iraq a much easier sell.

This is grasping at straws, people. With this type of logic anything can be the initiator of the Iraq invasion.

It turns out Hussein wasn't the worst despot in the region. More people have died since.

It was the misinformation and lies of the then Administration that sold the war to almost 50% of Americans.

And finally, Bush did not say the poor intelligence regarding WMD (Yeah, right!) was the worst thing about his administration. He stated that the worst thing was flying over New Orleans after Katrina without landing and allowing a photographer to snap the famous picture of him looking out the window from the comfort of his plane was the worst thing.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

The 9/11 twoofers in this thread certainly have their panties in a wad, don't they?

Who would have thought the death of their hero would have driven them so mental?

 

[UWdude]

Who would have thought the death of their hero would have driven them so mental?

Yeah, that's just it. Because we don't like the lopsided killing and bombing of people to impose on them western values and "freedom", means we <3 dictators and thugs to reactionaries like yourself.

People like you are nothing new. They are what allowed Napoleon to take the ideals of liberty, freedom and equality and twist them into some kind of nationalistic crusade to impose imperial French culture on Europe.

Your wars are the same garbage. You all talk freedom and liberty and apple pie, but what you bring is misery, oppression and cadavers.

And for the record, I think killing Osama was the right thing to do. But I know it will be used to justify assassinating any other enemies of "the people" and "democracy". And the mindless masses will eat it up like all the other patriotic garbage they feed their brains every day without question.

 

[epepke]

This is grasping at straws, people. With this type of logic anything can be the initiator of the Iraq invasion.

No; it isn't grasping at straws. Historically, the 9/11 attacks had a lot to do with the willingness of the American people to let Bush have his way, and also for the complacency of the press, which was caused by the trauma of 9/11. It's called "political capital."

I suppose that someone could argue against that proposition coherently, but it would have to be someone a lot more thoughtful than you are.

 

[Virus]

But at the end of the day the current Iraqi government is a hell of a lot better than the Nazi and Stalin-inspired Saddam regime.

 

[UWdude]

But at the end of the day the current Iraqi government is a hell of a lot better than the Nazi and Stalin-inspired Saddam regime.

It is way better when white soldiers kick down your doors screaming at 3 am in the morning and haul you off to a torture prison than when Arab soldiers do it.

And screw all that socialized medicine and things saddam had, people want to pay private corporations and navigate ever increasing insurance premium schemes for their healthcare! Because USA is best way!

And when American soldiers rule Iraq with an Iron fist, it is to stop Islamic extremists, but when Saddam does it, it is to.. wait, what's the difference again?

America isn't loved any more in Iraq than Saddam was. That more propaganda to feed your bloodthirsty little hearts.

 

[Virus]

It is way better when white soldiers kick down your doors screaming at 3 am in the morning and haul you off to a torture prison than when Arab soldiers do it.

And screw all that socialized medicine and things saddam had, people want to pay private corporations and navigate ever increasing insurance premium schemes for their healthcare! Because USA is best way!

And when American soldiers rule Iraq with an Iron fist, it is to stop Islamic extremists, but when Saddam does it, it is to.. wait, what's the difference again?

America isn't loved any more in Iraq than Saddam was. That more propaganda to feed your bloodthirsty little hearts.

Prove that Iraq's elected government is worse than Saddam's Nazi and Stalin-inspired regime.

 

[egslim]

But at the end of the day the current Iraqi government is a hell of a lot better than the Nazi and Stalin-inspired Saddam regime.

That assertion requires some evidence.

You may find this interesting: http://pubrecord.org/world/8978/iraq-progress-wishful-thought

Increasingly, journalists find themselves harassed, intimidated, threatened, arrested, and physically assaulted by security forces attached to government institutions and political parties.
[...]
a rise in tribal customs and religiously-inflected political extremism. “This has had a deleterious effect on women’s rights, both inside and outside the home. For Iraqi women, who enjoyed some of the highest levels of rights protection and social participation in the region before 1991, these have been heavy blows,” HRW said.

At the moment the best an impartial observer can say about the situation in Iraq is that it's a work in progress.
Compared to the country under Saddam improvements in freedom of expression are unclear, women's rights have deteriorated, and secularization has gone down the drain.

 

[Virus]

That assertion requires some evidence.

Saddam: 1 million dead.

Current government: Less than 1 million dead.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

we don't like the lopsided killing and bombing

Not true. 9/11 truthers and conspiracy nuts love "lopsided killings and bombings" like 9/11. Mass casualty events are your movements lifeblood.

there's a reason why the formulation of conspiracy theories is called "disasterbation".

we <3 dictators and thugs

Indeed. One never hears an unkind word from 9/11 truthers about fellow truthers and brutal racist tyrants Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or Hugo Chavez.

As long as Ahmadinejad is spewing hateful anti-american and anti-semitic bilge in front of the UN, truthers take it as an affirmation. Which is why they will never turn against him no matter how many innocents he has gunned down in the streets.

Osama Bin Laden himself is getting the same treatment from the tinfoilers now. He has morphed from being a CIA agent and part of the conspiracy in truthers eyes into an innocent man "summarily executed in front of his family".

Coddling murderers, racists and tyrants is what the 9/11 truth movement is all about.

 

[egslim]

Saddam: 1 million dead.

Current government: Less than 1 million dead.

Don't be so impatient. Saddam was in power for more than 30 years, Maliki for only five.

Plus many of the Iraqi deaths under Saddam were caused by the sanctions.

As for an Iraqi casualty count since 2003, estimates range somewhere between 100,000 and 1,000,000. I read about a meta-study that compared two of those counts and found only 19% of the deaths in one list could be traced to deaths in the other list. In other words, both were gross underestimations, and the real figure is therefore likely to be near the upper bound.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Last i've heard of Chomsky was his appearance at Harvard end of March, together with Malalai Joya^WP. That woman is a true hero. Jingoistic Yankistani douchebags should be forced to listen to her.

The Case for Withdrawal from Afghanistan

 

[NWO Sentryman]

Wow, the hard left have really gone off the rails. Let's see, they were making up fantasies about how the US military was:

- regularly forcing Iraqi/Afghan men women and children to march across minefields at gunpoint and shooting them all if a US officer steps on a mine
- going into towns rounding up the people into barns and burning them alive with flamethrowers
- promoting mass rape of Iraqi/Afghan women and then shooting them or burning them alive or marching them across minefields

That's what they were saying when they compared the US with the Nazis, who actually did all of those things on the eastern front.

/rant

Anyway, egslim, i'd like to see a source for the meta-study.

 

[egslim]

Anyway, egslim, i'd like to see a source for the meta-study.

Took me some time to find it, but here it is: http://news.infoshop.org/article.php?story=2011031006441

In late October, IBC estimated the civilian war death tally to be about 104,000.
[...]
A research team from the Columbia University Mailman School of Public Health released a report this week analyzing the amount of overlap between the 66,000 WikiLeaks reports and the previously known listing of IBC.
[...]
Only 19% of the WikiLeaks reports of civilian deaths had been previously recorded by IBC.
[...]
it took the Columbia University team just minutes to realize that for most events reported outside of Baghdad (where matching takes more work) there were no reported killings in a particular city or province on that day within IBC’s database.

As a result of the Wikileaks report the IBC increased its estimate from 104,000 to about 150,000.

That number has to be wrong. The initial IBC-count missed 4/5th of the Wikileaks count, which is incomplete itself. The truth is we really don't know how what the real number is.

My guess: Since the initial IBC-list missed 4/5th of the deaths from the Wikileaks-count, I expect they missed 4/5th of the total figure as well. That would put it at about 500,000.

 

[jiggeryqua]

Wow, the hard left have really gone off the rails. Let's see, they were making up fantasies about how the US military was:

- regularly forcing Iraqi/Afghan men women and children to march across minefields at gunpoint and shooting them all if a US officer steps on a mine
- going into towns rounding up the people into barns and burning them alive with flamethrowers
- promoting mass rape of Iraqi/Afghan women and then shooting them or burning them alive or marching them across minefields

That's what they were saying when they compared the US with the Nazis, who actually did all of those things on the eastern front.

/rant

Anyway, egslim, i'd like to see a source for the meta-study.

That's what who was saying, when? Ah, you did say...'the hard left'. Not anybody here, or anybody specific, just 'the other side'. And they said it when they compared the US with the nazis. Not that anybody here did that either. Virus (I think he's hard right, though 'soft' too) did invite us to compare the US and saddam's 'nazi/stalin-inspired' regime. Do you have any evidence for anything, or will your contribution only be partisan slurs?

 

[Joey McGee]

I like how you used the word "evolved", as in the evolution has finished. Sadly, it was correct usage.

That is not how I used that word. Fact is evolution moves slowly. Happily culture often moves in tipping points and exponentially.

You would think that the people in the pentagon would be smart enough to at least hide the fact they code-named America's most despised man after an Apache warrior. In fact, I bet if there was an Apache in the room, he would have said, "how about 'target 42' instead as a name? It's a tad less offensive to my people"

Funny to see you change your tune, McGee, at first, you were saying they had better things to think about than if their code names are racist.

I didn't change my tune, I still don't think it was a big deal.

And the problem is not that the code name was racist, the problem is that they actually used it without second thought, which gets to the whole heart of the bigoted and growing in popularity war against Islam westerners are waging unthinkingly as they spout off Arab stereotypes, and have no problem promoting mass killings and assassinations (I mean of "quackdaffi" in particular) on message boards that claim to be forums of enlightenment and skepticism.

I just don't think you can read all of that into a freakin' codename.

Because the gods know, had some Estonian promoted the assassination of George W. Bush, he would get a banning, but some Australian promotes assassinating an Arab leader, and the moderator says it's no big deal.

People keep using this ridiculous analogy like Bush was some kind of Hitler? I mean how was Bush a bad guy that we shouldn't be surprised if that would happen? Not even relevant.

Same thing with all the people dead in Iraq, everybody would be singing a different tune if America had brought a civil war to Britain, and hundreds of thousands of innocent blue eyed blonde haired girls with ribbons in their hair had been bombed and mutilated by American deception. But if it's just filthy mooslims, well, it was the price to pay for their freedom. Shunna brought theer keeds to a war zun.

Are you forgetting about WW2? Yeah, none of the soldiers care about the people they are there with, it's all a big scam, all a big racist conspiracy.

Nothing special about JREF, it's packed with a bunch of bigots and racists who claim not to be, like every other board and boardroom. And they'll come rushing to their lily white crusader heros, no matter how ludicrous and despicable.

You read things that aren't there. And slander groups of people with racism. If you're on some kind of activism high, really you're not helping your case, your words are empty like punching the air.

pathetic. Whatever makes your flag look brighter and cleaner to you, bud

Yeah, always accuse people of being sick and twisted, more than they really are, great pastime.

 

[stokes234]

9/11 had significant effects on the American people and the press which made an invasion of Iraq a much easier sell.

Yup. According to this, at the time of the iraq invasion, around 45% of americans believed saddam hussein was directly involved in 9/11.

According to this, the invasion of iraq increased global jihadism by a factor of ~7.

As to my earlier claims, if I can be bothered i'll find the sources and post them later. I do sometimes make the error of making claims for which the sources are alot of effort to find again.