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Moon Hoax conspiracy

Most of the moon rocks are being kept in reserve for future generations, but it's still possible to get material for research. IIRC they are easier to get a hold of if you're only going to do nondestructive tests. Most tests are either nondestructive or consume only a few grams, so the samples are usually returned more or less intact (though there's some contamination after all this time, mainly from plastic and rubber)

The list of geologists who have handled moon rocks personally is likely in the thousands by now - I saw a list of names from all over the world that was from the '70s, and it had several hundred names. My own experience is limited to looking at one at the Smithsonian, but then, I'm no geologist.
 
Time is important, it is fatal if exposed long enough. No time qualifiers were added to the question.

If you want to convince people, blind assertions with out evidence is not the way to do it.

To put it simply, show your work. Then we can see why you think that.
 
A better question might be how do we know they exist, and can we the people test their chemistry ourselves? Or do we take their word for it?

(I'm not a moon-hoaxer, just being skeptical).

Geologists from multiple countries, including those hostile to the US interests have confirmed that the rocks are not of terrestrial origin and are not meteorites. If you get a post-grad degree in Geology, you can ask to test them a bit.

Moon hoaxers with zero science knowledge (i.e. all of them) need not apply.
 
Isn't it amazing? They come here almost on a weekly basis and open with something like:

I'm really a skeptic but I saw/read/heard/experienced such and such, and I'm currently at a loss to explain it. Do you people have any ideas?

(beef up as needed with personal anecdotes, etc)

And in a few pages reveal themselves as hard-core believers, who won't budge or listen to arguments.

Why do they keep doing this? Of course, it's mostly new people every time, but you'd have thought the tracks would repel them. Or do they really not see how their predecessors get ripped apart? Is Er able to convince himself that he has made a case here?

Hans
 
I think they really believe that they are going to open our eyes.

Their definition of skeptical is something like this: "Doubting things I don't understand, but not really wanting an explanation."

They establish a belief based on gut feeling, not necessarily based on facts. That is why it is so hard to convince them of anything. We are trying to change their beliefs and usually no amount of evidence will dissuade them.

That is why when backed into a corner, they want to change the topic. They can't admit that their belief is wrong so they just try to avoid all evidence to the contrary by not talking about it any more.

They also don't understand the basic tenet of science in that when proven wrong you either simply abandon the hypothesis and try to re-work it so that it fits the evidence.
 
That is why it is so hard to convince them of anything. We are trying to change their beliefs and usually no amount of evidence will dissuade them.
I've heard it said that you can't use reason to argue a man out of a position that he didn't use reason to arrive at in the first place.
 
I've heard it said that you can't use reason to argue a man out of a position that he didn't use reason to arrive at in the first place.

That sounds like some prime signature material to me... where does that originate?
 
Film is altered by a mere 5 rems of radiation. On the way to the moon the astronauts were exposed to 500 rems of radiation, which is enough to result in nausea, vomiting and diarrhea (100% chance within four hours), damage to the gastrointestinal tract, cataracts, loss of vision, bone marrow damage (Moderate to severe), and a 100% chance of permanent sterility within one to two hours. I’ll deeply discuss radiation in my next article. Think about at the airport when you have to put your camera in a lead box to pass through the detector, if you don’t the film will be ruined by radiation. Even in severe sunlight film can be destroyed. Not one of the Apollo pictures has any sign of radiation damage. The astronaut’s suits would need to have been made of lead to protect them from radiation. No lead was present on the space suits or on the rocket.


http://nicholasweiss.com/NASA2.html

While it's clear that ERichardson hasn't even looked at the school exercise that I presented back on Page 1 of this thread -- unfortunate, since it demonstrates that an average American eighth-grade student can follow its argument -- the copy 'n pasted commentary above deserves its own reply. I didn't see if anyone else had tackled it.

For starters, the unit Rem is a unit of total dose, not rate of exposure. This unit has fallen out of favor, to be replaced with the more logical and easily converted Sievert, also a measurement of total dose. Saying an astronaut absorbed "500 Rems" of radiation has nothing to do with how fast he traversed the van Allen belts, because it measures the total. It could refer to a long exposure at moderate levels, or a short exposure at extreme levels. Which it is doesn't matter.

The claim quoted above that astronauts absorbed 500 Rem is ridiculous, since this would prove fatal in most cases. Furthermore, the school exercise I've linked above -- again -- reveals the correct answer to be in the range of 11 Rads, or using the more fashionable unit again, 0.11 Grays.

Grays and Sieverts are similar. They differ in that Sieverts are corrected by a fudge factor depending on the type of radiation, and another fudge factor depending on the type of organism. For astronauts traveling through the van Allen belts, the primary form of radiation is electrons, and the organism is humans, so both fudge factors are = 1 and in this case 0.11 Grays is roughly equal to 0.11 Sieverts, or 11 Rem.

Not 500 Rem, 11 Rem. Your source is lying. That's all there is to it. 11 Rem isn't good for you, but it's not particularly dangerous. And that's the unprotected dose, i.e. the dose an astronaut would receive if he'd been sunbathing on the command module during the journey.

Now let's turn to film. It is true that camera film is sensitive to ionizing radiation, and just how sensitive is a complex function of the film type, grain size, and properties of the radiation.

Keep in mind, however, that film in space is nothing new. Many spy satellites relied upon film. NASA has had plenty of opportunities to study the effects of radiation on film (and astronauts too) and come up with countermeasures.

A nice thing about film is that it isn't particularly large. This makes it possible to shield the film without incurring a huge weight penalty.

Also, the radiation in the van Allen belts, again, is primarily in the form of trapped electrons and protons. You don't need lead to shield from these. Aluminum works just fine. Indeed, rad-hard electronics (something my shop is deeply involved in, as we send robotic probes to Jupiter) typically use relatively thin aluminum armor to protect computer chips from radiation effects.

The Apollo capsules, therefore, were quite adequate to protect both astronauts and their cargo. Not perfect protection, of course, since weight was still a factor, there are windows, and there are other, lower intensity sources of radiation that are harder to stop. But certainly good enough protection, particularly when combined with intelligent mission design that minimized their exposure. And if any special consideration was needed for extra-sensitive film, additional shielding would be simple to provide.

Finally, to ERichardson: I present the above as a learning opportunity for you. But there is one thing more -- I am a NASA scientist. Is there anything you'd like to say to me? Anything you'd like to ask?
 
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While it's clear that ERichardson hasn't even looked at the school exercise that I presented back on Page 1 of this thread -- unfortunate, since it demonstrates that an average American eighth-grade student can follow its argument -- the copy 'n pasted commentary above deserves its own reply. I didn't see if anyone else had tackled it.

For starters, the unit rem is a unit of total dose, not rate of exposure. This unit has fallen out of favor, to be replaced with the more logical and easily converted Sievert, also a measurement of total dose. Saying an astronaut absorbed "500 Rems" of radiation has nothing to do with how fast he traversed the van Allen belts, because it measures the total. It could refer to a long exposure at moderate levels, or a short exposure at extreme levels. Which it is doesn't matter.

The claim quoted above that astronauts absorbed 500 Rem is ridiculous, since this would prove fatal in most cases. Furthermore, the school exercise I've linked above -- again -- reveals the correct answer to be in the range of 11 Rads, or using the more fashionable unit again, 0.11 grays.

Grays and Sieverts are similar. They differ in that Sieverts are corrected by a fudge factor depending on the type of radiation, and another fudge factor depending on the type of organism. For astronauts traveling through the van Allen belts, the primary form of radiation is electrons, and the organism is humans, so both fudge factors are = 1 and in this case 0.11 grays is roughly equal to 0.11 Sieverts, or 11 Rem.

Not 500 Rem, 11 Rem. Your source is lying. That's all there is to it. 11 Rem isn't good for you, but it's not particularly dangerous. And that's the unprotected dose, i.e. the dose an astronaut would receive if he'd been sunbathing on the command module during the journey.

Now let's turn to film. It is true that camera film is sensitive to ionizing radiation, and just how sensitive is a complex function of the film type, grain size, and properties of the radiation.

Keep in mind, however, that film in space is nothing new. Many spy satellites relied upon film. NASA has had plenty of opportunities to study the effects of radiation on film (and astronauts too) and come up with countermeasures.

A nice thing about film is that it isn't particularly large. This makes it possible to shield the film without incurring a huge weight penalty.

Also, the radiation in the van Allen belts, again, is primarily in the form of trapped electrons and protons. You don't need lead to shield from these. Aluminum works just fine. Indeed, rad-hard electronics (something my shop is deeply involved in, as we send robotic probes to Jupiter) typically use relatively thin aluminum armor to protect computer chips from radiation effects.

The Apollo capsules, therefore, were quite adequate to protect both astronauts and their cargo. Not perfect protection, of course, since weight was still a factor, there are windows, and there are other, lower intensity sources of radiation that are harder to stop. But certainly good enough protection, particularly when combined with intelligent mission design that minimized their exposure.

Finally, to ERichardson: I present the above as a learning opportunity for you. But there is one thing more -- I am a NASA scientist. Is there anything you'd like to say to me? Anything you'd like to ask?
Do you really think anything anybody says will convince ERboy otherwise?
 
Who knows?

Education is the goal here. If not ERichardson's, then perhaps someone else.
 
During the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo programs (not counting Apollo/Soyuz, or Skylab missions) there were 8 astronauts who died during training:
Theodore Feeeman
Elliot See
Charles Bassett
Clifton Williams
Edward Givens
Gus Grissom
Ed White
Roger Chaffee
4 due to plane crashes
3 in Apollo 1
1 in a car crash
Training was also a dangerous endeavor (or endeavour).
There were also many potentially deadly accidents during each program. Gus Grissom nearly drowning after his Mercury flight. During Gemini 8 Neil Armstrong and Dave Scott faced blacking out when a stuck thruster put them in a spin. Snoopy, the Apollo 10 LEM, suffered Gimble Lock above the Moon. So the missions didn't always go flawlessly, ask the crew of Apollo 8 about the smell.


While the actual Apollo missions began during the Johnson Administration, the conception of the Apollo program can be traced back to a meeting at the White House in Nov. 1962. This would be during the Kennedy Administration.
http://history.nasa.gov/JFK-Webbconv/index.html

You guys talk about one of my favorite subjects, and I'm at work all day. Good job defending reality JREFers.

This also not counting all the engineers, technicians, and contractor execs that died or committed suicide from the stress of the space race.
One Grummand technician was killed during the testing of the lunar modual landing gear.
The landing gears were spring load and deployed quickly. During testing the test gear accidentaly deployed smashing the tech in the head.

This was taken from Tom Kelly's book on the development of the Lunar Module.
 
More on the Apollo Cameras.



Yes, this is totally wrong. The camera was set onto a bayonet on the chest, but was easily removed simply by pushing it upwards. The Astronauts exited and entered the LM without their cameras and in a number of cases gave their camera to the other astronaut (on Apollo 11 they only had one camera on the EVA and passed it between themselves several times, altough Neil had it most of the time.) Whoever wrote the page had no knowledge of the programme beyond what he read on the back of a cornflake packet.

Although it is unfinished and so is not spell checked or complete, my Apollo 12 page has a lot more on the cameras.

On the LRRR's

You claim to that you want absolute proof that theywere put there by people. Sorry that's not how it works. We have missions reports, photos and witness testimony that say they were. It's now up to you to show that they weren't. Where are your photos, plans, witnesses, mission details for the LRRR's being plaved their by unmanned probes? You can't just wave away the evidence that says they were put them by people and then stated that it was an unmanned probe by default, you have to show the evidence that it was done by an unmanned probed or the evidence it was done by people stands.

At the end of EVA missions only the film cartidge was kept. They threw out the cameras along with thier EVA backpacks (To lighten the load to compesate for the Moon samples) The suits power and air supply was provided by the LMs environmental unit. That's why the space suits had those extra attachments up front.
 
True, his posts do tend to be really good but in this case i think it is an exercise in futility. Kind of like the search for the tomb of jesus.

Oh I don't know; ER has all but admitted that at a minimum we must have sent unmanned missions to the moon and back. That eliminates a lot of hoaxer arguments (the computers were too primative, etc.). In fact, such an admission would probably be grounds for dismissal in some hoaxer circles. So perhaps there is some hope for partial progress.
 
I know some of this info is late, but the Apollo missions are a big interest for me.

Here are some sites about the Apollo Guidance Computer:
http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/
http://www.computerhistory.org/exhibits/highlights/apollo.shtml
http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/vs-mit-apollo-guidance.html

From these sites you can download the instructions and the instruction set for the computer and an AGC simulator if you are so inclined.

Somewhere out there is a site on how to build one yourself using contemporary electronic components.
ETA: Here it is. http://klabs.org/history/build_agc/

This link is to Spacecraft films which is publishing just about every picture and film ever taken on all the apollo missions.
The page is specific to a DVD set that has a MIT documentary about the apollo computer that is pretty detailed. It even covers how the made the computer using early solidstate gates and magnetic core memory. (and a wirewrapped backplane board!!!!!!)
Truely amazing. http://017a165.netsolstores.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=15

This last link is to a huge store house of NASA documentation covering most of the US (and Russian) space program, including the Apollo program.
It's one of my favorite. If your looking for the fabled LM airconditioner, here's where to start
http://www.geocities.com/bobandrepont/apollopdf.htm


Lastly, Here's to link to what Dr Van Allen himself said about the radiation the astronauts were exposed to in the Van Allen belt.
http://www.clavius.org/envrad.html
 
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I myself am uncertain why people have filled ten pages to debunk the guy who on page one said:
ERichardson said:
In 1969 computer chips had not been invented. The maximum computer memory was 256k, and this was housed in a large air conditioned building. In 2002 a top of the range computer requires at least 64 Mb of memory to run a simulated Moon landing, and that does not include the memory required to take off again once landed. The alleged computer on board Apollo 11 had 32k of memory. That's the equivalent of a simple calculator.
and
ERichardson said:
The Space Shuttle, so far, has killed fourteen people, merely trying to attain an orbit about two hundred fifty miles above the Earth. How is it then, that a third of a century ago, with less computing power in the entire rocket than in a present day twenty dollar Wal-Mart watch, NASA claims to have gone 100,000% farther, six different times between 1969 and 1972, landing on another celestial body and then returning, without ever killing anyone? How could they have powered air conditioning in two hundred fifty degree heat for three days with batteries? Why is the "second round" of "returning" to the moon estimated to be no earlier than half a century after the first?

I mean, there is no arguing with someone who simply has no faith in the problem-solving abilities of thousands of engineers and scientists all working on the same problem with a practically unlimited purse to work with.

It's also amusing to read someone who evidently gets a lot of use and help from the current state of the art technology, but evidently believes it comes to him/her through the intercession of Santa's pixies, since without all these technological benefits to begin with, nobody could produce any of these technological benefits, apparently.

I have many times laughed myself silly at people who somehow believe that a moonflight simulation is equally or less complicated than going to the moon, when in fact of course a simulation has to do considerably more than figure out a few equations and feed the numbers to rocket engines. In fact, since the simulation has to depict the world in which the simulation takes place, the complexity is orders of magnitude greater. And very clever people crammed a great deal into those tiny memory banks.
 
Oh I don't know; ER has all but admitted that at a minimum we must have sent unmanned missions to the moon and back. That eliminates a lot of hoaxer arguments (the computers were too primative, etc.). In fact, such an admission would probably be grounds for dismissal in some hoaxer circles. So perhaps there is some hope for partial progress.

Bolding mine.

The fact is that he has not admitted any such thing. You took the logicial conclusion for the statements made. However logical conclusions do not seem to factor into his world.
 
Bolding mine.

The fact is that he has not admitted any such thing. You took the logicial conclusion for the statements made. However logical conclusions do not seem to factor into his world.
theres no continuity in the CT world, it doesnt matter what argument you used 5 minutes ago, who you cited in your last post, or what you think happened yesterday, if you keep changin the subject no one will remember
 

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