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Monkey See. Monkey Do. Oops $12 million.

smartcooky said:
Yup, that is exactly what he is saying... even if he claims to not to have meant it that way.

Calling Black kids monkeys is not real racism, apparently
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I think the argument is that the teacher didn't see them as black kids; he just saw them as kids. And that kind of makes all the difference.

There is this unspoken requirement floating around here, that you can never look at these kids as just kids. They will always be black kids, and even though obviously well intentioned, I don't think that's a good thing.

If, as reported, this teacher had been doing this schtick for years with students of all races, I think that points to there being no racist intent. This also jibes with the tremendous support that was shown for the teacher in the school hearing.

Also, carry this 'monkey do' thing out. Should a teacher never use this expression involving a black kid? That seems to be the feeling here. Can the teacher use it with white kids? If so, the requirement seems to be that the teacher can play around with one group, but must be more reserved with the other.

You think kids will not pick up on their teacher treating people differently based on their skin color? However well intentioned this is, this seems like the wrong approach.
 
It is extremely dehumanizing to call a white kid a monkey. You are saying that a human being is a monkey. That is so wrong.
 
Thermal said:
I think the argument is that the teacher didn't see them as black kids; he just saw them as kids. And that kind of makes all the difference.

There is this unspoken requirement floating around here, that you can never look at these kids as just kids. They will always be black kids, and even though obviously well intentioned, I don't think that's a good thing.

If, as reported, this teacher had been doing this schtick for years with students of all races, I think that points to there being no racist intent. This also jibes with the tremendous support that was shown for the teacher in the school hearing.

Also, carry this 'monkey do' thing out. Should a teacher never use this expression involving a black kid? That seems to be the feeling here. Can the teacher use it with white kids? If so, the requirement seems to be that the teacher can play around with one group, but must be more reserved with the other.

You think kids will not pick up on their teacher treating people differently based on their skin color? However well intentioned this is, this seems like the wrong approach.
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There a lot of things like these that “people have been doing for years” that are racist. The symbols and concepts under which African Americans where brought to the US in crammed ships to be used as slaves for a white society live on and need to be eradicated. We cannot allow the perpetuation of such attitudes to continue and people’s dignity devalued regardless of intent.

And how could anyone not be aware of these symbols and their use against black people? How often do we keep having such discussions? Again, if they are for whatever reason unaware this will serve as an expensive learning experience and a call for the HR department to educate.
 
Thermal said:
I think the argument is that the teacher didn't see them as black kids; he just saw them as kids. And that kind of makes all the difference.

There is this unspoken requirement floating around here, that you can never look at these kids as just kids. They will always be black kids, and even though obviously well intentioned, I don't think that's a good thing.

If, as reported, this teacher had been doing this schtick for years with students of all races, I think that points to there being no racist intent. This also jibes with the tremendous support that was shown for the teacher in the school hearing.

Also, carry this 'monkey do' thing out. Should a teacher never use this expression involving a black kid? That seems to be the feeling here. Can the teacher use it with white kids? If so, the requirement seems to be that the teacher can play around with one group, but must be more reserved with the other.

You think kids will not pick up on their teacher treating people differently based on their skin color? However well intentioned this is, this seems like the wrong approach.
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This post is stunningly unbelievable. I can’t believe you are serious.

No, a teacher (or anyone else in a position of authority) can’t use the word “monkey” in relation to black kids. Nor the n word, nor jiggaboo, nor jungle bunny, nor ..... you get the drift. You know this, so why are you saying otherwise?

Have you had any contact with teachers since you left school? Cultural awareness has been hammered into them from the first day of their training and they are well aware of consequences of racism in the classroom.

The troglodyte teacher in question deserves what is coming to him and I hope he never enters a classroom again.
 
William Parcher said:
It is extremely dehumanizing to call a white kid a monkey. You are saying that a human being is a monkey. That is so wrong.
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I don’t know why I rise to bait like this, but here goes.

You know the difference between calling a white kid and a black kid a monkey. Cut out this ********.
 
William Parcher said:
It is extremely dehumanizing to call a white kid a monkey. You are saying that a human being is a monkey. That is so wrong.
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Class is important here. Two classes based on the colour of a person’s skin and a symbolism of the savage animal contrasted with a genteel civilised white. Being white in this framework removes this class hierarchy aspect. Still a teacher doesn’t want to go around calling any kid a monkey. Are you calling them stupid? Good at climbing trees? There is no need to say such things.

But its all such a minefield and I don’t know what to say anymore? What makes it easy is empathy and a willingness to listen to others describe how they feel about things.
 
Where did this zoology teacher get his degree? For years he has been saying that white kids are monkeys and now he says that black kids are monkeys too. He needs to be replaced by a zoology teacher who learned that no children are monkeys.

This school got complacent because they hadn't already been sued for millions by four white kids. Kids who are not monkeys!
 
Sideroxylon said:
There a lot of things like these that “people have been doing for years” that are racist. The symbols and concepts under which African Americans where brought to the US in crammed ships to be used as slaves for a white society live on and need to be eradicated. We cannot allow the perpetuation of such attitudes to continue and people’s dignity devalued regardless of intent.

And how could anyone not be aware of these symbols and their use against black people? How often do we keep having such discussions? Again, if they are for whatever reason unaware this will serve as an expensive learning experience and a call for the HR department to educate.
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Yeah, we get all that. Its the finer points that are a little murky, like using the innocent phrase 'monkey see, monkey do'. That is not specific to black people, the way a slur or wearing chains would be.

What some of us are asking is 'is this going too far, even though well intentioned?' Are we requiring white people never use the expression 'monkey do' at all, or just use it with white kids? Do you see what I mean?
 
“It scars them forever,” said Beverly Dean, one of dozens of speakers who addressed the school board before a crowd of about 300 people at Longwood High School’s auditorium. “What are we going to do for that student when they are 30 years old and have a flashback?”
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People like this just brings my piss to a boil. There are people out there experiencing actual traumatic things. I just watched the first two episodes of a Norwegian TV series dramatazing the July 22nd attacks here in Norway. That's an event that scarred people forever. That's traumatic. That's life-ruining. That's something people might never get over, and struggle with 30 years from now.

Meanwhile here's a guy claiming that seeing a photo of yourself is similarily traumatizing that three decades from now they will still exhibit symptoms of emotional trauma.

The "snowflake" term gets thrown around a lot, and I typically do not like it, but in this case, the shoe fits so well I will bring it out. Even if the presentation was somehow incredibly racist, that's not traumatizing. Tell that to someone who has survived sexual or physical assault, war, or a terrorist attack.

Oh well. Whatever it takes to get rich, I suppose.
 
lionking said:
This post is stunningly unbelievable. I can’t believe you are serious.

No, a teacher (or anyone else in a position of authority) can’t use the word “monkey” in relation to black kids. Nor the n word, nor jiggaboo, nor jungle bunny, nor ..... you get the drift. You know this, so why are you saying otherwise?
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Because 'monkey see, monkey do' is not specifically a racial slur, as the others are. Its a standalone expression devoid of racism. You know this, so why are you saying otherwise?

Have you had any contact with teachers since you left school? Cultural awareness has been hammered into them from the first day of their training and they are well aware of consequences of racism in the classroom.

The troglodyte teacher in question deserves what is coming to him and I hope he never enters a classroom again.
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My wife works on the child study team in an overwhelmingly minority district. Yes, I have been around teachers and other education professionals socially for decades. My take on them is they are pretty casual about race. They are far more concerned with doing what they can on a very limited budget than with getting their panties in a bunch over something like the OP article. Such luxuries are more for people who have enough food on the table.
 
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If the school's account is correct, this is less a problem of casual racism as a norm, and more a problem of forgetting how innocent things can look to outsiders.

Maybe the moral of the story is, don't use your students as props for jokes. Or if you do, only work with students who know what you intend and are volunteering to be in on the joke.

These students claim they didn't know what was going on, and that they were cajoled and tricked into it. That's not necessarily $12m worth of racism, but it's probably worth some amount of "don't use your students as props without their informed consent."

I suppose it's possible the students and their families knew about the tradition, knew that their participation wouldn't make it racist, and knew they could exploit it for a payday.
 
lionking said:
Have you had any contact with teachers since you left school? Cultural awareness has been hammered into them from the first day of their training and they are well aware of consequences of racism in the classroom.
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Are you sure about that? This is America. School teachers probably don't get any more cultural awareness training than US police officers do.
 
theprestige said:
Maybe the moral of the story is, don't use your students as props for jokes. Or if you do, only work with students who know what you intend and are volunteering to be in on the joke.
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That can't work. You could have black students who know they will be in a Monkey Do photo and have no problem with that. They could beg the teacher to include them in the traditional joke with no intention of suing or complaining.

But then when the photo appears on the screen all hell breaks loose and we have another lawsuit and demand for firing coming from other students and their parents. This is because black kids were called monkeys and it DOESN'T MATTER if those kids are okay with it.

It won't work.
 
William Parcher said:
That can't work. You could have black students who know they will be in a Monkey Do photo and have no problem with that. They could beg the teacher to include them in the traditional joke with no intention of suing or complaining.

But then when the photo appears on the screen all hell breaks loose and we have another lawsuit and demand for firing coming from other students and their parents. This is because black kids were called monkeys and it DOESN'T MATTER if those kids are okay with it.

It won't work.
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I can't tell how much of this is sarcasm, how much is hyperbole, and how much is sober analysis.
 
theprestige said:
I can't tell how much of this is sarcasm, how much is hyperbole, and how much is sober analysis.
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If there is any sarcasm or hyperbole it was unintended. I'm serious when I say you can't use willing black kid volunteers. That is because other students will see the slideshow and declare that it is racist. You cannot call a black kid a monkey even if that kid has no problem with that.
 
William Parcher said:
That can't work. You could have black students who know they will be in a Monkey Do photo and have no problem with that. They could beg the teacher to include them in the traditional joke with no intention of suing or complaining.

But then when the photo appears on the screen all hell breaks loose and we have another lawsuit and demand for firing coming from other students and their parents. This is because black kids were called monkeys and it DOESN'T MATTER if those kids are okay with it.

It won't work.
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Clearly that does not go far enough.
It is obvious from this discussion that all science texts and lesson plans must be amended to specifically point out that white humans and white humans only are included in the zoological classification of "Primates".
Any attempt to label a black person as a primate is clearly racist- and must result in the harshest penalties possible.
 
Distracted1 said:
Clearly that does not go far enough.
It is obvious from this discussion that all science texts and lesson plans must be amended to specifically point out that white humans and white humans only are included in the zoological classification of "Primates".
Any attempt to label a black person as a primate is clearly racist- and must result in the harshest penalties possible.
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I can tell how much of this is sarcasm, how much is hyperbole, and how much is sober analysis: 80%, 20%, 0%.
 
psionl0 said:
You have no idea of how cruel humans can be to others, nor of the extent of the harm that this cruelty can cause to the victims. An isolated insult doesn't even begin to compare.
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I was beaten up repeatedly from about age 8 to age 14 by bullies. Not one of those attacks, or all of them together, affected me as profoundly as that adult shaming me for my appearance.

As for how it compares to the trauma of others, I'm pretty sure I didn't compare it to anything but the situation under discussion. I wouldn't even call that comparison 1:1.

Anyway, I appreciate your kind words and your effort to educate me about how I should feel, both now and as the child I used to be.
 
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