Momentum Transfer in WTC

Its 911 here too. I spent the last half hour looking at the videos linked by Kent. Some of the "flashes" are debris. They drift and fall, they turn and appear dark against the white smoke. Other flashes are flashes. They are horizontal, they are sharp and sudden, they disappear, and importantly, they do not move.

Also noticed was the stong horizontal and even upwards direction of the the ejected masses, with much smoke trailing behind. Bore a strong resemblance to this picture.
http://janedoe0911.tripod.com/wtc/nuke1.jpg


I'll be around guys. This is educational. I've answered a lot, it's been a long day. Not sure when I can get back, am going to speak tomorrow.

See if there is anything I haven't answered to anyone's satiisfaction, and I'll give another go as time permits.
 
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I don't know. Maybe it would 4000 lbs. Maybe 8000. What's your point?

While you're mulling that, I'll try again to spoon feed you my point, again, about the illogic in NIST.

If you are trying to contend that the observations require more explosives than could possibly be planted, you are clearly refuting your own postiion. If your position is that local collapse can lead to global collapse, then only small amounts of explosives are required. Or, put another way, if you insist that large amounts of explosives are required, then you are refuting NIST.
{bolding mine}

Now, I see the point you were attempting to make a couple pages ago. It's quite illogical and frankly, stupifying - probably the reason noone understood it(we are debunking ourselves?!?!).

Dude, we aren't trying to refute ourselves - we are refuting YOUR theory. Gee whiz :rolleyes:
 
Truthseeker, why is it that when we observe, it's unaccepted conjecture? When you observe, it's factual evidence? When we point out the absence of scientific facts or request you to refer to some, you say that observation is more important. But then again, our observations aren't important. YOUR observations are. Do you begin to see a pattern? You are seriously deluded that you are having an intelligent debate, here. You are blowing smoke up our kilts and offering nothing in return. "I can see but you can't" is not an argument, it's a wussy kindergarten recess temper tantrum.

You've hit upon a major difference between REAL investigation and the kind of biased wannabe investigation that truthseeker and his ilk makes. Only things that support his position are valid. Only things that HE observes exist. Conjecture and rumor are added to the 'evidence' pile with as much weight as any piece of real evidence, then arrogantly shoved down our throats like we are blind, brainwashed idiots. If only we could just look at one more picture, we would finally 'get' it.

People like that skip their merry way, la di, la da, around forums like this like it is some kind of video game. It disgusts me.
 
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twinstead clarified
The red lines do not move. They demonstrate that the roofline moves down about 6 stories, while the 98th floor and below does not move.

Again, they demonstrate NOTHING, because you can't see through the smoke.

I can appreciate that many of you are falling back on an appeal to authority.

Get your fallacies straight, seeker. You're not appealing to authority when using real experts in the relevant fields to support your point.

Here is your answer. Please read this. I concur with this study, as it proceeds scientifically, trying to construct a demolition theory which is consistent with the observations.

It doesn't proceed scientifically. All it does is speculate. There are no numbers, no quote from knowledgeable people, etc.

OK. As you all know, Dr. Jones has shown quite convincingly that there were pools of molten iron at ground zero.

What, no steel ? Where does that iron come from ?

Lash entertains with a false dichotomy

Well, at least you got that one right.

Pardalis, flashes happen before and during the collapse. It is a whole complicated series of events. Read Ross' papers, the subject of this thread.

Saying it's complicated doesn't mean your pet theory is correct. Setting off explosives during a demo would be risky, indeed. What if your timing was slightly off ?

Video is helpful here as opposed to photos, because the duration of flash is important.

How so ?
 
I don't know much about superthermites, but I understand they deliver a lot of energy per weight unit relative to RDX. There is evidence for sol-gels being used, according to Jones, because of the DPP in the dust.
You and Jones are both 100% wrong. Thermite in any form is not an explosive, but an incendiary. Nowhere even close to the energy of RDX.
 
I can appreciate the obvious fear that all of you OCT's are demonstrating.

Again, you're not a truth seeker at all. You're a preacher.

1) No building near that size or strength had ever been demolished before, so the requirements were uncertain. Better to use too much than too little.

Speculation.

2) It was being exploded from the top down, whereas standard demolitions are from the bottom up. Bottom up makes better use of gravity to destroy intact structure.

Speculation.

Kent, you are avoiding the video I linked, one of the one Ross relied on. you claim that you believe it is reflections off of aluminum, I hear you. The problem is, there is evidentally no debris of any kind anywhere near the flash.

Unless they're less than one pixel wide.

Observation is a key part of science. Theory must account for observation. Theroy that ignores relevant observation is bad science.

Is that what you think science is ?

1. First, we have a litany of firefighters and others in the buildings reporting that they saw, heard, felt, and were seriously injured by explosions.

DURING the collapse, bucko. Explosions an hour before destruction do not count. Can you think of a reason why ?

2. I already answered the question about why charges continue during the collapses, as does Ross.

So you are comfortable with an illogical answer ?

This certainly appears to be arguing from incredulity, as in "I just can't believe there would be explosions, so it can't be true, regardless of what we observe".

The problem is we're not sure WHAT we're seeing, as opposed to you, who, like the stereotypical religious fundamentalist, can afford certainty in the form of utter ignorance.

Great, link it and then we'll estimate how much is there, and what percentage of the total that represents. That would be science.

No, it would be guesswork.

It's very interesting. In this picture, the "white dots" do appear to be pieces of debris, unlike in the video I linked, where large flashes appear and disappear suddenly in the exact place where the structure breaks.

Yeah, well the resolution is much better. Notice how small those pieces are.

What is the explanation for this? Pressure from above? Can't be.

Why, seeker, that sounds remarkably like an argument from incredulity.
 
Loss thinks the top of the south tower is not tipping over. This is a great example of the ridiculous lenths people will go to protect the world view. Denying the plainly obvious. Frightening. Anybody else agree with Loss?

No. Much debris fell outside the "footprint", but that doesn't tell us anything about a controlled demolition.

Yes, the top of the tower tilted, but it didn't tip. Once the other side of it failed, it stopped tilting and went straight down.

c - Thermite is not used in standard controlled demolitions, you are correct.

Since it burns DOWNwards, I don't why it'd be used at all.

So I repeated that, according to the (ill) logic of NIST, it would require very little explosive.

Then I see you haven't read my response. You can't have it both ways, saying that NIST is wrong, and when asked about YOUR theory you quote NIST.

2) you claim that some impossible-to-plant amount of explosives would be needed to lead to the destruction we observe.

No, that would be you.
 
You've thrown out a fallacy thats so stupid it doesn't even have a name - basically arguing from the opposing POV and not your own.

No, it has a name. It's a form of the fallacy of equivocation. He's using the word "collapse" in two different ways in a single sentence. It's a rookie mistake, but then he is a rookie.

BTW, I just watched 9/11 coverage in real time on CNN.Com. It was difficult to do but it reminded me that we are not dealing with some theoretical exercise. Thousands of people were murdered. Every moment one spends playing the conspiracy game and not concentrating on the real causes of their deaths only dishonors their memory.
 
Therefore, if you believe that local failure leads to global failure and the observed pulverization (whatever percentage), then it would not take a lot of explosives to bring about these observations.

You are wrong. Explosives don't carry as much destructive force as 30 storeys coming down.

Guys, I didn't say that 99% percent of the concrete was turned to powder. I started out with the number 50%, at one point I said, in passing, that it was "more like" 99%", and that i was being generous. I do not know exactly what percentage of the non-metallic mass was rendered into fine powder, but it was a lot. If sufficient photographic data exist, it could be estimated.

No, it couldn't. You can't make that sort of estimate with pictures. I've said this before.

This is farcical. Yes, a lot of explosives must have been used.

A million pounds is not "a lot". It's ludicrous.

I don't know much about superthermites, but I understand they deliver a lot of energy per weight unit relative to RDX.

Thermite burns DOWN. What part of DOWN don't you understand ? How can you cut vertical columns with something that goes DOWN ?

If local collapse leads to global collapse, then explosives were only needed at one level of the tower.[/QUOTE]

If that's the case then they aren't needed at all because of, oh, the two 767s that crashed into them.

here is evidence of cross bracing

No, that's still the temporary stuff. And I notice you used Christophera's badly pixelated picture. Could you point to the cross-bracing in that one, please ?

Again, what do you observe that allows your position? Without an observation, you are arguing from incredulity.

A tad better than arguing from ignorance, wouldn't you agree ?

If you are trying to contend that the observations require more explosives than could possibly be planted, you are clearly refuting your own postiion.

Again, you're overestimating explosives and underestimating gravity and the other forces involved (hint : 767s)

That's ignoring the evidence in front of you, Kent. If you send another video with the flashes in it, we'll look at that too. I don't have another one. My goodness you are being evasive.

You don't have much experience with video, do you ? He's asking for other videos so we can confirm those flashes from other angles.
 
If local collapse leads to global collapse, then explosives were only needed at one level of the tower.
Actually, I will go along with this statement. If explosives were planted to cause the top 14 floors of one of these towers to drop down onto the floor below, global collapse would be inevitable. It would also look a lot like what we see.

But you're not claiming that - you seem to be claiming that this resulting global collapse would not be sufficient to pulverize as much non-metallic material as we see being pulverized, therefore much more explosives were needed. Let's call this claim "T."

Our refutation of this claim is that if the gravitational potential energy (GPE) of just the falling building is not enough, it would take on the order of a million pounds of C4 be significantly greater than the building's GPE. Since there seem to be very few people kooky enough to believe that a million pounds of high explosives could have been used, your claim, claim "T," has been refuted.
 
Actually, I will go along with this statement. If explosives were planted to cause the top 14 floors of one of these towers to drop down onto the floor below, global collapse would be inevitable. It would also look a lot like what we see.

But you're not claiming that - you seem to be claiming that this resulting global collapse would not be sufficient to pulverize as much non-metallic material as we see being pulverized, therefore much more explosives were needed. Let's call this claim "T."

Our refutation of this claim is that if the gravitational potential energy (GPE) of just the falling building is not enough, it would take on the order of a million pounds of C4 be significantly greater than the building's GPE. Since there seem to be very few people kooky enough to believe that a million pounds of high explosives could have been used, your claim, claim "T," has been refuted.
The pulverized concrete and wall board, and other material, are a complete red herring. Why are we wasting our time with this? The transmission of dynamic load through out the weakened structure, and the serial dynamic loads can be modeled, but NIST didn't do it because their aim is to look at better building and structural methods for the future.

There has got to be some college professor somewhere who can assign to some of his grad students the modeling of the dynamic loads on each floor below the failed floors, and the serial effects.

What I am curious about is whether or not many lower floors, below say 40-50 50, didn't fail early due to the rapid serial transmission of massive impact loads, a vertical sheer load on a lot of attach points, bolts, and welds, throughout the structure. These shear loads would sever, not bend, the connections between the upright and horizontal members. At what point would load absorbtion lead to failure as and initiate a lower floor collapse in parallel after X number of floors above them collapsed one at a time.

Back to "just blow a few floors" theory.

This plan presumes that both aircraft were aimed at specific, but different by about 10 floors of separation, floors on each tower. The aircraft impact is aimed at providing a smoke screen, a cover up to the single floor demolition that was intended to trigger the collapse, top down, of the 12 or 20 story building section (the top of either tower) above undamaged floors. Also to trigger emotional outrage at rag heads, which I have been harboring since about the summer of 1979. (Teheran)

This destructive scheme would require analysis done during mission planning such that the detonation, by remote or by clock timer, is synchronized to the time-on-target aircraft attack, + XX minutes, and was rigged such that the trigger device would be protected from the initial impact damage/shock at > 90% confidence. Subsequent collateral effects, fires for example, could be assumed with a reasonale fuel load on any aircraft, and the plethora of combustible office materials in any office.

The next rational step is having more than one floor riggedto ensure (redundancy is part of any sound plan) that if one floor's rig was damaged or a pilot slightly missed the target floor (see the turning impact at WTC 2) a few other floors would still be available to be triggered, and thus the global collapse triggered. This all assumes away the seismic evidence against explosions.

Thus, none of the three-five floors that were initially hit, and thus explicitly targeted to be hit, could be rigged without risking the integrity of the explosive demolition. This raises the question: why not hit both towers at about floor 80-90, to ensure a 20+ story pile driver as the active destructive mechanism? You want it to work, you stack the odds for success in your favor.

Why the assymetrical destruction pattern? Well, silly me, to fool people into thinking amateurs pulled this off! :rolleyes: Muahahahahahaha!!!!

How many floors actually had to be rigged? Probably 4-6 per building, each begining a floor or two below the planned impact floor. How to dispose of the evidence of charges not detonated, the redundant charges? Rigging for such a task in floors below burning floors would not necessarily burn, so there might be considerable explosive left over for forensic analysis.

Where did it all go? Right, "plants" in the forensic analysis teams, all of whom cleverly secret away all traces of explosives found during rubble clean up.

No inadvertent explosions of c4 (or what have you) during rubble clean up? ?? ?? ??

What trigger mechanism, and what fusing would be needed? How would it be implanted without notice? How many months and weeks of various "maintenance workers" to slowly and methodically place these charges in corner offices, where big wigs worked?

Most of these witnesses would be presumed casualties: since dead men tell no tales, they'd not be available later for testimony, eh? :( Oh wait, not everyone who works in every office was at work that day, eh? So, all the folks on floors rigged, below burning floors, who were either out of town, or were able to get out . . . they report no odd maintenance activity? They are all in on it? What?

Of all the conspiracy theories available, this would have a hope in hell of standing up (still requires suspension of disbelief on the rigging phase) in terms of the "aiding and abetting the weakening of the structure by impact, fire, and fire proofing coating" with a little nudge from some C4 or other suitable demolition material.

Seismic record still not answered, of course.

OK, I can come up with this off the top of my head in about 15 minutes. How is it that any CT advocate doesn't approach this with similarly rational analysis? Is it due to the overwhelming emotion involved in the CT position?

Look at how much more complicated their theories are than a simple, cold hearted analysis by someone whose profession included thinking about how to kill people and blow things up.

I am still at a loss to explain WTC 7 in this "plan," other than a planning assumption that enough junk would fall on all and sundry nearby buildings to ensure the kind of damage needed to initiate collapse, or permit Mister SilverSatan to appeal to the Port Authority when all the other rubble had cleared to demolish a bulding too far gone to be salvaged. He could go either way.

*scratches head*

Going into the mind of CT is a strange thing.

I'd rather drink a toast in honor of my fallen comrades at the Pentagon.

*raises a glass of Kentucky Boubon*

DR
 
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This plan presumes that both aircraft were aimed at specific, but different by about 10 floors of separation, floors on each tower. The aircraft impact is aimed at providing a smoke screen, a cover up to the single floor demolition that was intended to trigger the collapse, top down, of the 12 or 20 story building section (the top of either tower) above undamaged floors.

I made many of these same points earlier in the thread here. Truthseeker ignored them and he will ignore you. Why? Because reality takes all the fun out of his stupid, stupid argument.
 
What I am curious about is whether or not many lower floors, below say 40-50 50, didn't fail early due to the rapid serial transmission of massive impact loads, a vertical sheer load on a lot of attach points, bolts, and welds, throughout the structure. These shear loads would sever, not bend, the connections between the upright and horizontal members. At what point would load absorbtion lead to failure as and initiate a lower floor collapse in parallel after X number of floors above them collapsed one at a time.

I believe NIST covers this indirectly. When some of the interior columns were severed at impact enough of the load was transferred via the hat truss to exterior columns that not all the interior columns had to take up the weight. There were enough exterior columns to take up the additional load pretty easily.

Interestingly, when the floor joists started to sag the bolts still didn't give out, instead they pulled on both the interior and exterior columns (causing bowing).
 
Forget it. He's gone. He realized that he was outclassed in any argument on this thread so he moved on to insulting both the victims of 9/11 and the Holocaust. After he's done with his personal attacks there, I suspect he'll disappear back to the LC forums and tell everyone how he gave us the what-for.
 
Here's an interesting photo of WTC 2 that shows the exterior steel columns on the east side. If you draw a line from the top to bottom you will notice inward bowing of the vertical columns, especially in the center of the photo. What does that suggest?
 

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What I am curious about is whether or not many lower floors, below say 40-50 50, didn't fail early due to the rapid serial transmission of massive impact loads, a vertical sheer load on a lot of attach points, bolts, and welds, throughout the structure. These shear loads would sever, not bend, the connections between the upright and horizontal members. At what point would load absorbtion lead to failure as and initiate a lower floor collapse in parallel after X number of floors above them collapsed one at a time.


1. You'd have to calculate the loads

2. On the outer frame the staggered, linked loadbearing panels would effectively spread point loadings away to a certain extent, such that the failure mechanism you talk about would be localised.

3. Ditto the core frame's cross-bracing and horizontal members.
 
Dr. Frank Greening's new paper on the pulverization of concrete at the WTC appears today on 9/11 Conspiracy Smasher.
 
I do not know why this was moved to "conspiracy theories" from "science and mathematics". I am not interested in any conspiracy theories on this thread. I am only interested in the science and math.

Thanks

because Ross's paper is in error as seen by proof on 9/11.

funny when you write a paper that says there is 10 percent more energy needed to bring down the WTC and you were off by 30 percent!

WTC fell and that proves Ross's paper is in error!

Do you always pick the wrong horse?

Sorry but you failed to study Ross's paper, and if you check his work you can see the errors. Study some math and science. I recommend about 4 years study before you embarrass yourself with such shoddy research again.
 

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