Molten Steel

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Yes, sure, in the NIST NCSTAR 1-3 - they quote literature data too, which is something that any metallurgist would do. It gives correlation (or not!) between your own testing data and that which is available.

Chapter 7, page 104, Fig 7-1 (modulus), Fig 7-7 (normalised YTS), Fig 7-8 (normalised UTS). *normalised is not something that's intuitive so if anyone has any questions I (and I suspect lots of others) can answer regarding that.

http://www.fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/fire05/PDF/f05130.pdf

(Don't be swayed by the visual colours which enhances data points and tricks you into thinking that the average (or whatever) should be lower or higher than it is. Curve fitting is not done by eye now).

There is other stuff out there, but it's hard to find freely. Usually you find textbooks etc that will have data taken from available papers. eg: AISC - Steel Design Guide - Fire Resistance of Structural Steel Framing. (Disclaimer - not sure what type of steel this is - I haven't looked closer - so it's upto the reader to look at the source).


Table X.1 Steel Modulus of Elasticity and
Yield Strength Reduction at Elevated Temperatures


Steel Temperature
°F [°C] Em/E Fym/Fy
68 [20] 1.00 1.00
200 [93] 1.00 1.00
400 [204] 0.90 1.00
600 [316] 0.78 1.00
750 [399] 0.70 1.00
800 [427] 0.67 0.94
1,000 [538] 0.49 0.66
1,200 [649] 0.22 0.35
1,400 [760] 0.11 0.16
1,600 [871] 0.07 0.07
1,800 [982] 0.05 0.04
2,000 [1,090] 0.02 0.02
2,200 [1,200] 0.00 0.00

You'll also see the picture of the wooden beam with steel girders drooped over it often accompanied by a "strength/temperature graph" - bear in mind that modulus, YTS and UTS are all affected by temp.

And no, I'm not going to make my employer's comprehensive data on steel properties v temp available! (actually it wouldn't make any difference - a) we don't use plain carbon steels at any temperature, b) truthers don't like data/graphs/maths/science etc.

Is there a common/average one? Good question. The biggest problem with materials testing data is there are mountains and mountains of the stuff, but very little access to it, let alone public access.

The reason for this is quite simple: Data is generated by private companies, which means that private companies pay huge sums to generate that data through test programmes. These companies are often rivals so why would they give their expensive data away for free which would remove their technical edge? So average or common ones are taken from general text books etc, who quote their sources. That's important, because not only is it peer reviewed (truthers look away, that's a dirty word), but if fortunate you can actually get the original "hard data" - the actual measurement. This helps make a judgement on the quality of the data and therefore you are able to "weight" it against certain criteria. This can form part of the data set that you finally use to ascertain your own material property data, but usually it's used as per NIST have done, i.e, include it on the graph, because it's all good reference material and helps the engineer view the overall picture and compare where his own generated data lies.

Papers and so forth, on different topics, used to be hoarded by individuals from university departments as part of a reference framework and through them (as an undergraduate/post-grad etc/affiliate/sponsor/or partner company) you could get access. Nowadays people/companies/universities etc sign up to web based sites to get access to research. Data is expensive.

I'm quite interested in those graphs - sadly I've had to go through the dirge of producing similar material myself aswell as integrating it into our company's database. It isn't a straight forward task and requires the use of statistical techniques as well as using experience and knowledge to "weight" data. (I can trace some things back to the early 50's! - it's all valid data, but how do you incorporate it into a database?).

I knew steel was complicated, but not that it was that bad:)
Throught there were some generaliced data available.

Figure 7-9 on page 112 is what I was looking for. It is simplified enough to tell me that if you heat steel past 400C the strenght will start dropping fast.

Fire is hotter than 400-500C and even intact insulation does not protect forever.
 
The only known way to get sulfur into steel and cause intergranular melting is thermate.
I posted this on March 8, 2009. I would liken the rubble pile to most examples cited in those sources, however the main purpose behind that post was to illustrate that therm*te is not the only way to produce sulfur from one of the most plentiful materials used inside the towers. You ignored the post entirely.

Quite the contrary. The girder is partly melted.

He is repeating the unproven NIST assertion.
Where's the slag?
 
I knew steel was complicated, but not that it was that bad:)
Throught there were some generaliced data available.

It looks worse than it is, i.e it looks more complicated than it is.

*Steel Beams Load Tables: "Safe Load Tables";
high-strength alloys and heat-treated steel loose strength more rapidly, permanently weakened if heated above 300 - 400 degrees C

mild steel looses strength slower, regains nearly all of original strength during cooling

Variation with temperature of ultimate strength for steel alloys:
types of steel
% OF STRENGTH AT ROOM TEMPERATURE

Temperature Mild Cold drawn High strength
(degree C) Steel prestressing alloy bars
20 100 100 100
100 102 97 98
200 115 94 102
300 112 80 97
400 82 55 82
500 55 34 60
600 30 16 38
700 20 8 20

On the old days, we used to forge swords between 600-700 degrees Celsius.
 
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I knew steel was complicated, but not that it was that bad:)
Throught there were some generaliced data available.

Figure 7-9 on page 112 is what I was looking for. It is simplified enough to tell me that if you heat steel past 400C the strenght will start dropping fast.

Fire is hotter than 400-500C and even intact insulation does not protect forever.
where did you get your information from on the heat trials of 400 degrees C? Do you have the time line or duration of exposure of heat sourcing, another words, for how long, what type of applied heat, what is the fuel source of the applied heat source, what gas (oxygen, nitrogen, helium, carbon monoxide etc) is being used to induce the heat and to make it constant?


Most people never understand the criteria and the processes for what it takes for melting, softening or enabling molecules in the steel to "flow", there is a lot to it, needless to say. It's one of the reasons why us folks at the government and private labs never could flatly say that any steel members failed due to heat in the wtc towers.

Even the layman understands that the fires were not strong enough, hot enough, supplied with the correct fuels and gasses to accomplish steel failures.
 
Most people never understand the criteria and the processes for what it takes for melting, softening or enabling molecules in the steel to "flow", there is a lot to it, needless to say.

I've just got off the phone to my broker with a buy order on laughing dogs. There's going to be a serious shortage.

Dave
 
perhaps some of you can post some of your testing experience, your analyzation trials, both in the field and in the lab or controlled environments,
Stress tests, Bending Testings, heat and Cold Testing, Crash tests, Hardness tests, Metallographic tests, Test to Failure, Life Cycle testing as well as all NDT's that you have been engaged in and are familiar with.
 
perhaps some of you can post some of your testing experience, your analyzation trials, both in the field and in the lab or controlled environments,
Stress tests, Bending Testings, heat and Cold Testing, Crash tests, Hardness tests, Metallographic tests, Test to Failure, Life Cycle testing as well as all NDT's that you have been engaged in and are familiar with.

I have a nasty suspicion that you would not recognice any of those if the headline was missing.
 
I have a nasty suspicion that you would not recognice any of those if the headline was missing.
Ok, fair enough, you aren't fortunate enough to have the background demmed necessary to distinguish what's needed and relevant on this topic board or discussion. May I inquire what is your profession? postal employee or mail man by chance? delivery truck driver, maybe UPS or Fed-Ex perhaps?
 
perhaps some of you can post some of your testing experience, your analyzation trials, both in the field and in the lab or controlled environments,
Stress tests, Bending Testings, heat and Cold Testing, Crash tests, Hardness tests, Metallographic tests, Test to Failure, Life Cycle testing as well as all NDT's that you have been engaged in and are familiar with.

Why dude, you already said that even layman can understand it. Here is my first experience: I was about 5 and I was at a RenFaire, and the blacksmith mistakenly let a horse shoe get too hot and it totally "melted" i.e bent out of shape. I think he was blowing nano-thermite on it through the bellows!
 
Ok, fair enough, you aren't fortunate enough to have the background demmed necessary to distinguish what's needed and relevant on this topic board or discussion. May I inquire what is your profession? postal employee or mail man by chance? delivery truck driver, maybe UPS or Fed-Ex perhaps?

Misplaced arrogance ROCKS!
 
Why dude, you already said that even layman can understand it. Here is my first experience: I was about 5 and I was at a RenFaire, and the blacksmith mistakenly let a horse shoe get too hot and it totally "melted" i.e bent out of shape. I think he was blowing nano-thermite on it through the bellows!
Thank you, at least you will admnit that you don't have the background, the fundemental exposure, the experiences needed to understand things of complex nature in testing or analysis, but you are willing to learn from people like me, who take the time to fill in the voids of the weak arguments presented by people that can not understand the nature of the 9/11 events.
 
Thank you, at least you will admnit that you don't have the background, the fundemental exposure, the experiences needed to understand things of complex nature in testing or analysis, but you are willing to learn from people like me, who take the time to fill in the voids of the weak arguments presented by people that can not understand the nature of the 9/11 events.

Except you haven't presented any evidence, just post after post of word soup. Do you plan on backing up anything you say with any real science and math?
 
Thank you, at least you will admnit that you don't have the background, the fundemental exposure, the experiences needed to understand things of complex nature in testing or analysis, but you are willing to learn from people like me, who take the time to fill in the voids of the weak arguments presented by people that can not understand the nature of the 9/11 events.

Yeah, totally! Except I forgot to mention that was my first experience. So when I was five I knew that metal can fail even when it was not totally "melted." Most truthers are not even at that level, so I wait with eager anticipation for you to teach them what I knew when I was five.
 
Ok, fair enough, you aren't fortunate enough to have the background demmed necessary to distinguish what's needed and relevant on this topic board or discussion. May I inquire what is your profession? postal employee or mail man by chance? delivery truck driver, maybe UPS or Fed-Ex perhaps?

:dl:
I am an electrician, did well in highschool math line, and have been sailing for the last 10 years.
That gives me suffient experince with welding, heating and bending steel, to know that it gets soft when heated.

Not being fammiliar with the shape of the strenght/temperature curve, and curius, I ask and hope that there are people here who can find and recognice the relevant data faster than me.
And yes, I am presented with data on the relevant steel types. (JR E F)


How about you?
So far you come across as uneducated BS.
 
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:dl:
I am an electrician, did well in highschool math line, and have been sailing for the last 10 years.
That gives me suffient experince with welding, heating and bending steel, to know that it gets soft when heated.

Not being fammiliar with the shape of the strenght/temperature curve, and curius, I ask and hope that there are people here who can find and recognice the relevant data faster than me.
And yes, I am presented with data on the relevant steel types. (JR E F)


How about you?
So far you come across as uneducated BS.
Geeze, I was trying to work with you, but not you are on the verge of being on the ignore list and getting banned and booted from here for just being a silly troll, when you can come back, after you grow up and not engage in childish and sophmoric behaviour, try starting over.

Perhaps you missed it but I made my qualifications known, 2 degrees, technical school graduate, additiional classes in forensic metallography, materials sciences instructor. I recently retired by was employed at the Nat'l Inst. of S & T for a little over 20 years. Spent time in R & D, technical specification and writing, testing and analysis, destructive as well as NDT programs. Numerous other achievements and activities as you can imagine as well as numerous and continued participation in the 3 wtc buildings as well as the Pentagon crash. I also worked in conjuncture with the NTSB and did my fellowship with the ASTM.
 
Perhaps you missed it but I made my qualifications known, 2 degrees, technical school graduate, additiional classes in forensic metallography, materials sciences instructor. I recently retired by was employed at the Nat'l Inst. of S & T for a little over 20 years. Spent time in R & D, technical specification and writing, testing and analysis, destructive as well as NDT programs. Numerous other achievements and activities as you can imagine as well as numerous and continued participation in the 3 wtc buildings as well as the Pentagon crash. I also worked in conjuncture with the NTSB and did my fellowship with the ASTM.

Doesn't JREF have a procedure that allows Prof. Pants to reveal his credentials to an administrator who will then vouch for his claims for academic and professional accomplishment without disclosing the specifics?

I ask Prof. Pants to pursue that and until it happens, restrict his claims
to things that can be sourced and cited in a good library or on the Internets.
 
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