Molten Steel

[BigAl]

Correct, but this is a very thin layer.

The small amount of aluminum oxide on the surface of the aluminum is not enough to entrain glass as Mr. Chastain has suggested:

"The specific gravity of aluminum is 2.7. The specific gravity of aluminum oxide (Al2O3-3H2O) is 2.42 the specific gravity of Si = 2.40 and Glass is 2.65 these are all very similay and likely to be entrained in a molten aluminum flow. Don't believe it? lightly stir the dross into molten aluminum. The surface tension is so high is is almost impossible to separate them."

Correct

Relivance?

Chris just makes stuff up as he goes.

 

[BigAl]

No one has presented any evidence that organic material can mix with molten aluminum.

There was lots of inorganic material on the floors and in the plane, too.

You don't have a clue about this stuff.

 

[Sunstealer]

Please clarify 'single data point'.

Sorry - I'm using a euphemism. Imagine for example the need to know how the strength of iron (Fe) changes with temperature. We would test the strength at various temperatures. We would then plot these values on a graph with the corresponding temperature. From this graph we would be able to see whether there was a relationship between temperature and strength with regard to Iron. Lets say that we performed this experiment 9 times at 0, 200, 400, 600, 800, 1000, 1200, 1400, 1600°C.

This would show any relationship. However, if I pick a single data point from the experiment then how do I come to understand the relationship?

It's impossible to draw a straight line on a graph through a single data point and therefore draw a conclusion from that single data point.

What you have effective done is give a single data point i.e. core columns didn't go above 250°C, but you have left out the rest of the data, therefore you can't come to any conclusion based upon the "single data point" you have used.

Damn I wish I could type as fast as I think - that took way too long to explain!

 

[BigAl]

Correct, but this is a very thin layer.

The small amount of aluminum oxide on the surface of the aluminum is not enough to entrain glass as Mr. Chastain has suggested:

Wrong again. Mr. Chastain says:

Aluminum oxidizes readily in the foundry [EVEN] under ideal melting
conditions. Large surface area relaltive to thickness, turbulence,
the presence of water or oil greatly increases the oxidation of
aluminum. A jet airliner is made of thin aluminum sheet and most
probably suffered conderable oxidation especially in contact with an
open flame and being in contact with jet fuel. If you dont believe
this, try melting a few soda cans over coals or open flame. If you
are lucky you will end up with only 50% aluminum oxide. However, the
cans may completely burn up.

The specific gravity of aluminum is 2.7. The specific gravity of
aluminum oxide (Al2O3-3H2O) is 2.42 the specific gravity of Si =
2.40 and Glass is 2.65 these are all very similay and likey to be
entrained in a molten aluminum flow. Don't believe it? lightly stir
the dross into molten aluminum. The surface tensionis so high is is
almost impossible to separate them.

 

[Christopher7]

You have been shown time and time again that this is NOT true.

Wrong!

WhiteLion has done this better than anyone else. Why do you refuse to read the links that have the evidence?

The link did not work.
Nothing he posted or referred to established that aluminum glows orange to yellow in daylight.

The video you link to does not do any science, there is no data that anyone can get from that video - it's worthless.

It's more than what you have, which is nothing.

There is NO scientific evidence that organic materials can mix with molten aluminum.

Any environment that is hot enough to produce fully liquid aluminium (alloy) at 510°C (950°F) for 2014

Source?
Is that the alloy airplanes are made of?

The melting point of aluminum is 660°C [1220°F]

is going to burn office materials. The liquid aluminium is going to oxidise it's surface, but also have environmental species diffusing into it's surface as well as pick up particulates of material from anything it touches, the ashes generated from the fire and god knows what else.

Key word here is surface. There is no scientific data that this thin layer will combine with anything. We just have Mr. Chastain's opinion.

As for the mixing - imagine baking a cake - you mix all the ingredients together, it's nice and smooth. Now stir some currants in. Bake the cake. Where are the currants? Did they dissolve into the mix? Did they disappear? What would happen if you used very, very small currants that couldn't be seen? Would you still taste currants?

Now try putting the currants in a vat of molten aluminum.
Where are the currants? Did they dissolve into the mix? Did they disappear? What would happen if you used very, very small currants that couldn't be seen? Would you still taste currants?

Kids, don't try this at home, you will burn your tong.

 

[A W Smith]

Overview; Secondary Aluminum

What are Sources of Dioxin Air Emissions?

Potential air pollutants: Dioxins/Furans, PM, metal compounds, chlorides, NOx, SO2, CO, Ammonia, and organic compounds

Sources of dioxin/furan emissions
Incomplete combustion

De novo synthesis
The presence of oils and other organic materials on scrap or other sources of carbon (partially burnt fuels and reductants, such as coke), can produce fine carbon particles which react with inorganic chlorides or organically bound chlorine in the temperature range of 250° to 500° C to produce PCDD/PCDF.
Contaminants in feed include organic and chlorine compounds such as fluxes, hexachloroethane, chlorine, unburnt fuel, oils and plastics
Catalyzed by the presence of metals such as copper or iron.

Chemical additions - chlorine mixtures for degassing and demagging and chlorides in salt fluxes provide chlorine for potential formation of dioxins. Chemical additions combined with process conditions favorable to formation of dioxin/furans at temperatures between 250° and 500° C result in emissions.

 

[Christopher7]

Wrong again. Mr. Chastain says:

Aluminum oxidizes readily in the foundry [EVEN] under ideal melting conditions. Large surface area relaltive to thickness, turbulence, the presence of water or oil greatly increases the oxidation of aluminum. A jet airliner is made of thin aluminum sheet and most probably suffered conderable [sic] oxidation especially in contact with an open flame and being in contact with jet fuel.

Speculation.

The word "considerable" is a bit vague. It needs to be quantified.

If you dont believe this, try melting a few soda cans over coals or open flame. If you are lucky you will end up with only 50% aluminum oxide. However, the cans may completely burn up.

This is his idea of scientific conformation.

 

[bje]

Dup...

 

[T.A.M.]

No, you didn't.

You only admitted Voorsanger was not a government scientist but only an architect. You refused to either name the "government scientists" who told Voorsanger that there was molten metal in the meteorite or retract that claim.

So, you have not admitted your wrong, have you, Chris?

pssst.

when your wrong so often, you have to admit it multiple times.

TAM

 

[bje]

On the contrary, I had noticed my error and corrected it in a subsequent post before anyone commented on it.

Furthermore I acknowledged the error in another post yet you continue to lie about my not admitting the mistake.

No, you didn't.

You only admitted Voorsanger was not a government scientist but only an architect. You refused to either name the "government scientists" who told Voorsanger that there was molten metal in the meteorite or retract that claim.

So, you have not admitted you're wrong, have you, Chris?

And you think no one noticed your evasions, Chris?

 

[Christopher7]

pssst.

when your wrong so often, you have to admit it multiple times.

TAM

Been there, done that.
However,
bje is wrong about my saying government scientists told him.

Will he admit it, probably not. Do I care, probably not.

Is bje a waste of column space, . . . . . . probably.

 

[Christopher7]

There was lots of inorganic material on the floors and in the plane, too.

You don't have a clue about this stuff.

So what?

The question still remains, "Where is the scientific evidence that organic materials can mix with molten aluminum."

 

[R.Mackey]

the huge area of heat was relatively 220F, sound good to ya. avaris was saturated too if u look at the pdf file mackey posted but they came up with a temp too.....

and i admit, i was watching it on video and the pics you provided were more clear.

(My bold) But this is a bald-faced lie!

I provided you the data, the reports, the analysis, and gave a lengthy explanation of my own on how the instruments are fundamentally different. All of this, if you had the faintest bit of comprehension, shows quite the opposite of what you claim -- shows, in fact, that what you claim above is impossible.

Since you can't understand this, you have no place making such a proclamation at all. You could ask, but no, you'd rather lie about it.

This is just like your continuing confusion of Dr. Astaneh-Asl's comments. You're wrong. I told you you're wrong, and I told you how to check -- see his bio that I linked to before? It has his e-mail and office phone on it, for crying out loud! He'll set you straight in about thirty seconds flat, but first, you have to actually do something. I've told you this before. You won't. You find it easier to lie.

Now, obviously, I can't prevent you from lying. I have no ability to reach through teh Intarwebz and smack you like your mother should have. The best I can do is give you the information to educate yourself -- I've done that, and it had no effect. So the rest is up to you. Only you can choose to stop lying.

Since you've chosen the opposite, why should I bother? Give me one compelling reason to pay any attention to you at all, if you can. Clock's running.

 

[Sunstealer]

Wrong!

The link did not work.
Nothing he posted or referred to established that aluminum glows orange to yellow in daylight.

It's more than what you have, which is nothing.

There is NO scientific evidence that organic materials can mix with molten aluminum.

Source?
Is that the alloy airplanes are made of?

The melting point of aluminum is 660°C [1220°F]

Key word here is surface. There is no scientific data that this thin layer will combine with anything. We just have Mr. Chastain's opinion.

Now try putting the currants in a vat of molten aluminum.
Where are the currants? Did they dissolve into the mix? Did they disappear? What would happen if you used very, very small currants that couldn't be seen? Would you still taste currants?

Kids, don't try this at home, you will burn your tong.

I suppose that kids are the only people you could possiby appeal to, however, I expect even children have more scientific knowledge than you. Your entire post is one of ignorance - how do you lie with yourself? You ask "is that the alloy that planes are made of" as if it's some super secret knowledge, however, anyone who has two brain cells to rub together could find a wiki page detailing it, yet you post 660°C without the understanding that a 14 year old understands that impurities lower the melting point of a pure metal. Everyone knows that, it's taught at a basic level. By definition an alloy is the the solid solubility of one element in another and therefore the dissolved element constitutes an impurity. Why do you refuse to understand binary phase diagrams and the research and application of such science that is used daily?

The information is out there - hell even wiki will give you that much knowledge yet you refuse to even investigate for yourself. Any dumb ass will understand that it takes more than one aluminium alloy for various parts of an aircraft, because various parts have different material requirements - I use that spec because it's common for commercial aircraft to use vast quantities in their manufacture. If you continue your "source?" nonsense then I'll just ask you repeatedly for yours. However, I know you have no sources. You have no evidence for 99% of what you claim.

His link worked for me - are you using a specific truther browser that automatically blocks pages that you don't understand?

You say that the key word is "surface" but you do not understand what that relates to, nor how a surface can allow diffusion of another species across it. F-i-c-k's laws - I keep hammering you into the ground with this but you and the other truthers do not have the brains to investigate or understand.

Why do you ask for a source (which you can find yourself inside 5 minutes) yet NEVER provide a source to back your statements when asked?

Why are you altering my posts to talk about currants in aluminium rather than the context that I used.

 

[Sunstealer]

Speculation.

The word "considerable" is a bit vague. It needs to be quantified.

This is his idea of scientific conformation.

So are you saying that aluminium does not oxidise?

 

[Gravy]

id like to see and try to determine a date on each photo (that showed signs of an attack) to get a better understanding of the time frame sisson is dealing with when it comes to the slag attack on the steel.

Suppose the photo was taken on Sept. 20. The most you could say is that the damage happened before Sept. 20. Other than that, you cannot tell how quickly it might have happened from looking at a photo. I gave you links to learn more about this. R.Mackey told you where to find Astaneh's contact info.

 

[Jono]

You have not been paying attention. Organics do not mix with molten aluminum. They carbonize on contact. This test by NIST confirms the tests done by Steven Jones.

What Jones did was to simply heat up aluminum to its melting point and slightly above, just to throw some un-molten material on it and claim it to be an argument that there is clear seperation of molten-vs-unmolten material thrown together. Well duh?
For crying out loud, let me tell you about yet another aspect of melting aluminum and consequence thereof. The consequence is called "dioxin". Now, dioxin can be released when welding or melting aluminum material that, for example, contains ORGANIC CHLORINE COMPOUNDS!

But no, "Prof" Jones threw wood or what not of unmolten material into a holder containing molten aluminum and pretends that this somehow means anything other than molten metal (aluminum in this case) added with unmolten material does not necessarily produce the same effect as molten aluminum alloys mixed with molten glass, plastic etc.

A proper experiment, if Jones had done it sincerely, allthough one isn't needed since only a handful of people who speak boastingly about these matters deny the chemistry inherent, would be to melt glass, plastic and aluminum alloys seperately and then mix them together and immediately pour it into a mold.
Either way, there wouldn't be that much need for impurities in the mix to explain the colours shown by the molten aluminum flowing out from the 82nd floor-corner, since like all metals even aluminum has a colour-spectrum and does not remain silvery independant of post-molten temperatures, as the many pictures I've posted here has demonstrably proven.

Organics mixing with aluminum is a baseless theory.

You just ignored my post, claim that one link of several doesn't work (I checked it, it works fine btw as I told you in my previous post) only to repeat your already addressed claim.
Respond on-point, categorically, or pipe it. Do not ignore a retort, claim nothing was addressed only then to re-state your claim as if nothing has happend.

WhiteLion has not posted anything that demonstrates organic materials mixing with aluminum.

Actually I have, I even included more relevant information for you in my latest reply where you did little but to stone-wall any arguments with denial, since you certainly didn't give any actual on-point retort.

I made no false statement. What statement are you talking about?

She is referring to your false statements that A) none of the pictures were taken out-doors or that sunlight wasn't present and B) that somehow a yellow/red glow of molten aluminum looks silvery out-doors in daylight.

Those statements!

Now, go back and respond on-point to the given retort, this means you do not ignore them and pretend that your initial claims are unchallenged. Unless you do so I will consider your absence of an on-point retort in turn to be a sign of you conceding to the clarifications.

 

[Christopher7]

Overview; Secondary Aluminum

When they reprocess aluminum cans, oils and organics it create a toxic gas. So what has that got to do with the price of beans in Boston? [or organic materials mixing with molten aluminum]

 

[Christopher7]

What Jones did was to simply heat up aluminum to its melting point and slightly above, just to throw some un-molten[organic] material on it and claim it to be an argument that there is clear seperation of molten-vs-unmolten[organic] material thrown together. Well duh?

You acknowledge that his experiment showed that organic materials don't mix with molten aluminum at a little above 660°C.

FWIW: When heated, organic materials don't become molten, they carbonize [burn]. duh?

For crying out loud, let me tell you about yet another aspect of melting aluminum and consequence thereof. The consequence is called "dioxin". Now, dioxin can be released when welding or melting aluminum material that, for example, contains ORGANIC CHLORINE COMPOUNDS!

These organic compounds are created in trace amounts and released, not combined.

But no, "Prof" Jones threw wood or what not of unmolten material into a holder containing molten aluminum and pretends that this somehow means anything other than molten metal (aluminum in this case) added with unmolten material does not necessarily produce the same effect as molten aluminum alloys mixed with molten glass, plastic etc.

Show where it says that molten aluminum can mix with molten glass or plastic, and under what conditions.

A proper experiment, if Jones had done it sincerely, allthough one isn't needed since only a handful of people who speak boastingly about these matters deny the chemistry inherent, would be to melt glass, plastic and aluminum alloys seperately and then mix them together and immediately pour it into a mold.

Has anyone done this? Is it possible? Why don't you try it?
Can't hurt. Right now you've got zip-zilch to support the "organic material-can-mix-with-molten-aluminum" throry.

Either way, there wouldn't be that much need for impurities in the mix to explain the colours shown by the molten aluminum flowing out from the 82nd floor-corner, since like all metals even aluminum has a colour-spectrum and does not remain silvery independant of post-molten temperatures, as the many pictures I've posted here has demonstrably proven.

The only picture taken outside in daylight shows the moulten aluminum was silver.

Show a picture, from a verifiable source, of molten aluminum taked outside in daylight that glows orange to yellow as it is poured like the molten metal falling from the south tower.

You just ignored my post, claim that one link of several doesn't work (I checked it, it works fine btw as I told you in my previous post) only to repeat your already addressed claim.

I checked out the links and found nothing to support the hypothesis of organics mixing with molten aluminum. If you have something specific, post it.

WhiteLion has not posted anything that demonstrates organic materials mixing with aluminum.

Actually I have, I even included more relevant information for you in my latest reply

Specifically?

I made no false statement. What statement are you talking about?

She is referring to your false statements that A) none of the pictures were taken out-doors or that sunlight wasn't present and B) that somehow a yellow/red glow of molten aluminum looks silvery out-doors in daylight.

The one where the aluminum appears silver is outside. I was referring to the others of course.

Looking again, the one in the sand pit with some weeds next to it may be in sunlight but there is no conformation of what it is. i.e. no report, no data

The video you link to does not do any science, there is no data that anyone can get from that video - it's worthless.

Provide verifiable scientific data that organics can mix with molten aluminum and/or that molten aluminum will glow orange to yellow when poured in daylight at 1000°C.

You have not yet done so.

 

[Christopher7]

So are you saying that aluminium does not oxidise?

No, silly. I'm saying that the oxidation is a very thin surface layer and minute in volume.