• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Molten Steel

Status
Not open for further replies.
Looks like a hunk of steel-reinforced concrete to me. Are we just supposed to take the word of some random guy in a suit that it is in fact a product of molten steel?

I'm surprised at your thinking on this. Certainly there is more reason to believe the gentleman since he is there looking at it and touching it as compared to debunkers and truthers looking a low-res video and saying it is or is not molten steel. It is more likely that he is one of the volunteer engineers investigating the steel than "some random guy in a suit". Did they permit random indviduals to examine the debris?
 
I'm surprised at your thinking on this. Certainly there is more reason to believe the gentleman since he is there looking at it and touching it as compared to debunkers and truthers looking a low-res video and saying it is or is not molten steel. It is more likely that he is one of the volunteer engineers investigating the steel than "some random guy in a suit". Did they permit random indviduals to examine the debris?

It's concrete with rebar in it. Your failure to see this disqualifies you from any opinion on 911.
 
It's concrete with rebar in it. Your failure to see this disqualifies you from any opinion on 911.

I promise never to give an opinion on 911. We are talking about Meteorite 1 (from the first video). Please post a still of the rebar (and not from Meteorite 2 in the second video).
 
I'm surprised at your thinking on this. Certainly there is more reason to believe the gentleman since he is there looking at it and touching it as compared to debunkers and truthers looking a low-res video and saying it is or is not molten steel. It is more likely that he is one of the volunteer engineers investigating the steel than "some random guy in a suit". Did they permit random indviduals to examine the debris?

Yes, that's so much more scientific.
 
I promise never to give an opinion on 911. We are talking about Meteorite 1 (from the first video). Please post a still of the rebar (and not from Meteorite 2 in the second video).

If you have not done it already please take a look at my post #105 where I have linked a possible photo of "Meteorite 1".


Here is longer version of the video thewholesoul posted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWWwsuoE9Z4&feature=related

The man interviewed in the video is Bart Voorsanger, an architect. He was a member of a comity tasked with gathering objects for a future memorial:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...936A15753C1A9679C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=2

It looks a though the video was filmed in New Jersey before the objects were moved to the hangar at JFK.

In the video there is a piece of rebar visible on the left hand side. And also what looks like remains of steel plates (decking for concrete?) at the bottom.

My take is that this is several concrete floors "fused together" in the collapse. The unusual looking surface of the concrete is quiet simply the result of erosion and chemical reactions as a consequence of fire and water for a long period in the debris pile. The last time the steel in that object was melted was at the steel mill.
 
Last edited:
I promise never to give an opinion on 911. We are talking about Meteorite 1 (from the first video). Please post a still of the rebar (and not from Meteorite 2 in the second video).

How do the bicycles fit into your theory?

Planes>fire>gravity why do you need more?
 
I cant understand how people can question the fire in the debris pile. Here in Sweden we celebrate First May every year with a huge bonfire. And that pile of ashes and dust can smoulder days after first may.
 
I cant understand how people can question the fire in the debris pile. Here in Sweden we celebrate First May every year with a huge bonfire. And that pile of ashes and dust can smoulder days after first may.
I also don't understand why it's questioned or why people try to defend the "flow" of molten anything. Each collapse had a pressure within the collapse column from 3 to 9 TONS per square inch. There was 1.6 Kilotons of energy released during the collapses (that is one tenth of Hiroshima in an area much smaller than Hiroshima) and a rubble pile that was 6 stories deep. Why any thinking human doubts that there should be fires is beyond my comprehension. Under the pressure of 3 to 9 tons PSI metal acts more or less like a liquid anyway so is it really hard to believe that there was molten metal at ground zero?

ETA - IOW, any so called truther that questions this is no more than a vile inhuman piece of garbage.
 
Last edited:
I also don't understand why it's questioned or why people try to defend the "flow" of molten anything. Each collapse had a pressure within the collapse column from 3 to 9 TONS per square inch. There was 1.6 Kilotons of energy released during the collapses (that is one tenth of Hiroshima in an area much smaller than Hiroshima) and a rubble pile that was 6 stories deep. Why any thinking human doubts that there should be fires is beyond my comprehension. Under the pressure of 3 to 9 tons PSI metal acts more or less like a liquid anyway so is it really hard to believe that there was molten metal at ground zero?

ETA - IOW, any so called truther that questions this is no more than a vile inhuman piece of garbage.

Well I think I'm human and I question molten steel.

PSI =/= temp.

If there was a pool of molten steel why did the pile of steel not subside into it?

Where did the energy come from to keep the steel hot?
 
Well I think I'm human and I question molten steel.

PSI =/= temp.

If there was a pool of molten steel why did the pile of steel not subside into it?

Where did the energy come from to keep the steel hot?
tsig...your right, there is absolutely no relation between temperature and pressure. Anyway, I am sure you can't explain ALL the unexplained "shock cocoons" and some of the more "odd" things that happened. Did you know that over by O'Haras at ground zero a bookcase from Marsh and Mclennan was found with books still in alphabetical order....want to try and explain that. In an apartment outside ground zero about 2 tons of debris was found inside an apartment that had only a broken window of 24x54 inches...care to explain that. Can you explain the memo from Marsh and Mclellan that was found in the rooftop vents of 10 house? Care to explain the phone books that were found intact yet imbedded in a car roof found underneath ground zero near Ladder 4's truck? If there was molten ANYTHING questioning it is senseless.
 
If you have not done it already please take a look at my post #105 where I have linked a possible photo of "Meteorite 1".


Here is longer version of the video thewholesoul posted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWWwsuoE9Z4&feature=related

The man interviewed in the video is Bart Voorsanger, an architect. He was a member of a comity tasked with gathering objects for a future memorial:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...936A15753C1A9679C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=2

It looks a though the video was filmed in New Jersey before the objects were moved to the hangar at JFK.

In the video there is a piece of rebar visible on the left hand side. And also what looks like remains of steel plates (decking for concrete?) at the bottom.

My take is that this is several concrete floors "fused together" in the collapse. The unusual looking surface of the concrete is quiet simply the result of erosion and chemical reactions as a consequence of fire and water for a long period in the debris pile. The last time the steel in that object was melted was at the steel mill.

Not just longer, but also clearer. Erases all doubt in my mind that I was in error previously. Again, thanks for the information.
 
How do the bicycles fit into your theory?

Planes>fire>gravity why do you need more?

I doubt that there is much disagreement between GregoryUrich and you on this. See this thread in case you missed it:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3810517#post3810517

And this post in the same thread:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3811470#post3811470

Anyway thewholesoul should definitely read that letter, if he hasn't done it yet. Though I have the feeling that he is going to ignore it, despite the fact that he otherwise loves to quote the papers by some other prominent members of "Scholars for 9/11 Truth & Justice".
 
Last edited:
This is an add- on to post#90

@ 1:23 into the video we see firefighters gathered around an apparent light source. I'm confused as to what purpose it serves in advancing your thesis. If the 'steel' is hot enough to be molten, the radiant heat from it wouldn't make it safe for firefighters to simply gather around in one spot right on top of that, at least assuming they didn't want to get cooked in the process.

There is also no date given for that image, as far as we know the light source could very well be totally different than what it is intended to insinuate. Remember that intensive rescue efforts were underway for at least a couple of weeks, is there anything to indicate that the image is not of spot lights or other similar light sources that would have almost certainly been used in the rescue operations?

Bolded portion: Indeed it seems that the picture I referenced here (1 minute and 23 seconds into the video) is not in any way, shape or form, molten metal. It is an altered picture of the rescue efforts that were under way at the time. In which they used spot lights, flash lights... etc. Here is the original picture:
ligtscj8.jpg



And it seems I over looked this before... I apologize, allow me to answer what I can:


grizzly i am noticing more frequently your failure to address the point i am making.
And I've noticed your ongoing habit of using unreliable sources of information in your efforts to support your evidence...

the WTC Dust had a unique signature. the question is how the molybdenum was created in the first place. does it always require extreme temperatures as alleged by truthers or can sphericules be formed in lower temperatures?
Some of it was already there... be it from the time of the buildings' construction when the steel was at the mills or otherwise.


why do answer a question with a question? i asked how did the rubble pile generate high temperatures so hot and so soon?

You said:

Morerover rubble piles following conventional demolitions have never produced temperatures sufficient to melt steel. So how did the rubble pile generate these temperatures so hot and so soon?

I was primarily responding to what I bolded in your quote. Your question is an oxymoron... you're trying to establish the premise that the WTC were brought down with therm?te which in turn should account for the hot spots, but you're working without any precedence.

I'm honestly not sure how to word myself to this question of yours... No conventional demolition is ever undertaken whilst a structure is burning, and as of yet you've not pointed out a single example where thermite was used to assist in a full-scale demolition. How exactly do you expect there to even be hot spots under conventional circumstances? The comparison you are trying to establish just doesn't work...


we know thermite does generate temperatures sufficient to melt steel does it follows if thermite were used in a contolled demolition one would expect to find melted steel.
Which is why i asked you if you could find any kind of precedent of a CD that used it, to which you answered:

and i answered none to my knowledge. so what? why is this point significant?

You stated: "...it follows if thermite were used in a contolled demolition one would expect to find melted steel"

6 weeks later? 2 days after? you're extrapolating without any prior case that would tell us what one could expect. As you are not able to find precedents, how do you know what one should expect from a CD done with thermite?



in the end this claim needs to be proven. personally i would like to see a small 4 storey house planted with thermite and watch if it collapses like we saw on 911. i would like to see if molten steel is produced etc.
Better yet, try a steel framed building of any size that iss slated for demolition... the problem of course with your claim thus far is that there is no such example and you're suggesting results which are at this point non-existent in precedence.

Maybe if such an experiment is ever done they can leave the rubble pile there for a few months and see how whether or not thermite can really leave molten metal after a few weeks, although I highly doubt to be possible...


Were any of the buildings in controlled demolitions ever on fire before they sat off their explosive charges? (This might be telling you something)

what is it telling me? spell it out.
See my response... the 5th quote above this.
 
Last edited:
I'm surprised at your thinking on this. Certainly there is more reason to believe the gentleman since he is there looking at it and touching it as compared to debunkers and truthers looking a low-res video and saying it is or is not molten steel.

Certainly I hardly feel my opinion of what it looks like bears much weight at all. I'm merely pointing out that the only reason we have to believe it contains molten metal is the word of this guy on the video. Do you know who he is? What his expertise is? What examination he has done? I have absolutely no idea. He might be a politician for all I know.



It is more likely that he is one of the volunteer engineers investigating the steel than "some random guy in a suit". Did they permit random indviduals to examine the debris?

Who said anything about him "examining" it? He was merely showing a reporter a hunk of debris that has quite clearly already been removed. He could be an engineer, sure. Or he could be a politician, or a museum curator, or any number of things. Maybe he's an FBI agent.

I'm not saying he's wrong. I'm just saying his statement is worthless because we don't know who he is. And until we do know who he is, yes, he's just some random guy in a suit.
 
Well I think I'm human and I question molten steel.

PSI =/= temp.


Well to be fair to both you and Enigma... materials under higher pressure do achieve higher temperatures - this is why the core of large celestial bodies are hotter than the surface.

However, materials under higher pressure also retain more stable states, which is why the Earth's iron core, although at more than double the temperature require to make iron boil at one atmosphere, is in fact solid at over 3 million atmospheres.

So basically, materials under higher pressure have higher temperatures but higher melting points.
 
Well to be fair to both you and Enigma... materials under higher pressure do achieve higher temperatures - this is why the core of large celestial bodies are hotter than the surface.

However, materials under higher pressure also retain more stable states, which is why the Earth's iron core, although at more than double the temperature require to make iron boil at one atmosphere, is in fact solid at over 3 million atmospheres.

So basically, materials under higher pressure have higher temperatures but higher melting points.
Agreed but can you assure me that under 3-9 PSI pressures metal does not act as a liquid or there is no way any metal could have been molten.

ETA - I will say that if pressure had nothing whatsoever to do with it, then there is no explanation for the "U" shapes we see in some of the steel columns.
 
Last edited:
Agreed but can you assure me that under 3-9 PSI pressures metal does not act as a liquid or there is no way any metal could have been molten.


I've always argued that molten steel in the debris pile is evidence of substantial fires in the buildings prior to collapse, is wholly consistent with the official account, and wholly in conflict with a CD theory.

I've seen no certain evidence that such molten steel existed, but I also have no real reason to doubt it. As the example of Burning Mountain in Australia shows us, underground fires are ample capable of generating temperatures hot enough to melt steel, and keep the steel at those temperatures.
 
I've always argued that molten steel in the debris pile is evidence of substantial fires in the buildings prior to collapse, is wholly consistent with the official account, and wholly in conflict with a CD theory.

I've seen no certain evidence that such molten steel existed, but I also have no real reason to doubt it. As the example of Burning Mountain in Australia shows us, underground fires are ample capable of generating temperatures hot enough to melt steel, and keep the steel at those temperatures.
No there is no reason whatsoever to doubt any type of molten metal. All of the doubts I have seen stem from either a standpoint of personal incredulity and or a lack of scientific principles.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom