Merged Molten metal observations

Is there any evidence suggesting thermite that can't be handwaved by saying the material coming out is aluminum? Like an ingredient exclusive only to thermite compounds found in very large quantities post collapse. Something like that might reveal the answers you seek Java Man. Doubt casting is not an attempt to explain, the evidence as it is right doesn't support thermite and the steel reaching the temperatures required to completely melt...

For the last 10 years the lack of any tangible thermite evidence has made defending the molten steel theory impossible, and it cannot explain the particular "event" which got all of you into a pointless semantics argument over how much soot is generated by two different types of fire fuels.
 
Last edited:
Then don't comment. Don't bring in the "lets wait for the expert", but meanwhile "I'll make an experts comment and sell it". Like you said you've only got undergrad classes and on top of that you're using terms like "obviously"? Only a debunker with the benefit of no burden of proof would get away with this. That still doesn't make you look less silly to the readers here.

Refute on merits, not nitpicks based on personal aggravation. I showed you the sources I found detailing the reaction kinetics for aluminum oxidation; here they are again. You have a disagreement with those, then bring it up. Until then, yes, I am speaking as someone more knowledgeable than you on the topic. Don't mistake humility and honest requests for double-checks as charlatanism; my undergrad degree was in chemistry, and I was appealing to people who may have actual practical knowledge above me as a double-check because I was never a practicing chemist; I ended up going into Information Technology. I never made that statement as a completely uninformed person reaching out to professionals because I don't know a damn thing; that's your misapprehension. Like other truthers before you, you overreach with your presumptions.

ON top of that, as far as understanding when someone writes, quote,
"...the growth of the oxide layer on an aluminum single crystal, at 20 oC and 1 atmosphere of dry oxygen, and that the oxide layer grew to 35 angstroms (3.5 nm) over the course of seven days and then stopped..."
...that doesn't take anything more than a middle school level of comprehension to understand that you're talking about a reaction that takes on the order of hours to days to progress to the point where it gets to nanometer depth. Same when another academic writes, very plainly
"...While aluminum is a very energetic material, its rate of oxidation is relatively low"
It doesn't take a genius to see that the consensus is that aluminum oxidations rates are low. It's reading comprehension that's the important skill here.

To properly refute a post, you must refute the merits. My argument is plain to see: Aluminum oxidation has been measured to be a reaction that takes on the order of hours to days; see references above. Combustion, in contrast, proceeds rapidly. A rapid reaction using oxygen will consume oxygen at a faster rate than a slow reaction using oxygen. Ergo, aluminum oxidation will proceed at a far slower rate than any combustion in the same area, and ounce per ounce, pound per pound will not consume as much oxygen as whatever else in the area is burning at the same time. If you think anyone needs an expert to derive that, then that's your fantasy to have.

------

And for the umpteenth time, aluminum is only one of the candidates for the molten flow being discussed. Again, there are multiple others, all of which are far more logical that steel. Since you have not even attempted to defend your claim
Well that it isn't really aluminum, but rather steel being melted by some agent.
...then I can only conclude that you have no support for it. Given that no one else's arguments in the past have substantiated that claim either, I'm quite certain I'm on firm ground that whatever support you may marshal will come up short. And given that you have failed to even attempt to support it in the face of multiple posts bringing it up, I can only conclude that you do not care to defend it. Consider that argument closed, then; that flow was not steel. I urge others to remember this and refer to this portion of this thread if he tries to claim molten steel as the falling flow from the South Tower ever agian. He has given no proof, and he's uninterested in even acknowledging the arguments proving him wrong in that regard.

And since you're unintersted in discussing merits, I'm uninterested in conversing with you. Welcome to ignore. You can continue to be everyone else's chew toy from here on out, but I don't care to respond to a person who, in the face of a logically constructed posts with verifiable information, avoids discussion of said verifiable info choosing instead to misinterpret and misrepresent. That's so emblematic of truther dishonesty.
 
Is there any evidence suggesting thermite that can't be handwaved by saying the material coming out is aluminum? Like an ingredient exclusive only to thermite compounds found in very large quantities post collapse.

No there isn't. And its not required either. Has anybody gone to the Sun for a sample and come back to Earth? What's that you say? No? But we understand very well how the Sun works.

Oh wait, but there is. There are samples of highly damaged and thinned beams. But the debunkers just handwaved it with another theory they conveniently didn't have to bring proof for.
 
That's an argument against you since a forest fire is bigger than an airplane fire. So there should be less soot in the airplane incident.
Since I haven't seen the fire in which you are talking about since you won't post a picture, I had thought it was dealing with a CAR fire in an forest. Not a forest fire.

With that caveat in place, I'd still wager that an unfought forest fire would have less SOOT directly in the area of the fire as anything which can burn does, and then the soot goes up in the atmosphere as the heat rises.

If the fire was being fought, then I'd agree that there should be lots of soot in the are the fire was fought in.

Care to provide the image and the events surrounding the picture?

Given the forest fire was all around it really doesn't matter which way the wind was blowing. There's bound to be soot.
Not true. if the wind is blowing in one direction, the soot would be carried in the direction the wind was blowing. So if the wind was blowing up and over the hill the wind would carry the soot up, while the aluminum would run down hill.

big difference.

Well a forest fire is bigger than an airplane fire and they didn't strip the car before they let it burn. So there were seats, wires, gasoline, oil, plastics, paint, rubber, etc on the car.
My mistake as I said before. But the difference is very important between a 100 ton aircraft filled with luggage, seats, thousands of gallons of gasoline, a hundred miles of wiring and a 1 ton vehicle with no more than 20 gallons of gas (ok.... maybe 30). Scale matters.

Airplane fire vs forest fire... big difference.

By the looks of the remains I don't think it was fought. Do you?

I haven't seen the image you are babbling about. If it wasn't fought, then there is a massive difference in how the after images would appear. Do you not understand that?
 
Is there any evidence suggesting thermite that can't be handwaved by saying the material coming out is aluminum? Like an ingredient exclusive only to thermite compounds found in very large quantities post collapse. Something like that might reveal the answers you seek Java Man. Doubt casting is not an attempt to explain, the evidence as it is right doesn't support thermite and the steel reaching the temperatures required to completely melt...

For the last 10 years the lack of any tangible thermite evidence has made defending the molten steel theory impossible, and it cannot explain the particular "event" which got all of you into a pointless semantics argument over how much soot is generated by two different types of fire fuels.

Yes, this. He wants to argue molten steel by simply making the claim and doing nothing else to positively support it. Casting doubt on other candidates is an empty tactic when steel is ruled out via other lines of evidence.
 
No there isn't. And its not required either. Has anybody gone to the Sun for a sample and come back to Earth? What's that you say? No? But we understand very well how the Sun works.

Oh wait, but there is. There are samples of highly damaged and thinned beams. But the debunkers just handwaved it with another theory they conveniently didn't have to bring proof for.

which have been extensively studied and found to be a very different reaction than what therm*te would cause.

handwave noted.
[yawn]
 
No there isn't. And its not required either. Has anybody gone to the Sun for a sample and come back to Earth? What's that you say? No? But we understand very well how the Sun works.
Analogy problem; it's impossible to argue a lack of evidence for thermite on the basis that the physical samples were inaccessible. Now then;

Oh wait, but there is. There are samples of highly damaged and thinned beams. But the debunkers just handwaved it with another theory they conveniently didn't have to bring proof for.

I didn't ask you to rant about your critics handwaving things you consider evidence. People had access to the piles for cleanup. The thinning of steel in WTC 7's pile can be explained more adequately by corrosion. If you're concerned it will be rejected on the grounds that a valid alternative solution exists your best route is to find something that can't be rejected this way.

Now, are you going to continue offering me excuses for not producing something which cannot be explained period with an alternative solution? Or will you actually produce it? Let me explain, if you cannot establish that thermite was present at any point in the piles, imperially, then no matter how inexpicable that emission might be from the towers, thermite cannot have done it period. You could of course argue another mechanism, but you need to prove based on what is known to have been present there.
 
Last edited:
<facepalm>

are you truly comparing a flat level runway with a van in the forest where the area is not level?

Really?
Truly?
honestly?

do you not see why the aluminum would go downhill away from the van as opposed to a level tarmac which would not let the aluminum go anywhere?

really?

He already compared the fires in the twin towers to a bic lighter......
 
sweet. you admit it finally.

Never denied it. I posted that when we did the math regarding the volume of aluminium. The amount arrived to does not coincide with what is observed in photographs. So the aluminium is going somewhere that isn't the melting pot.
 
He already compared the fires in the twin towers to a bic lighter......

Actually what I did (with some help from you guys) is put you in a tight spot. By using a bic lighter and then being bashed for it's low heat flame I managed to achieve phenomenons with a less intense fire. In other words I easily oxidized aluminium with a less intense heat source (as by your words) than was available in the WTC fires.

Notice how I later used the gas stove. With a much higher temperature ( I melted copper). Why would I use the bic lighter if I had the stove all along?
 
which have been extensively studied and found to be a very different reaction than what therm*te would cause.

handwave noted.
[yawn]

Oh God... not the sulfidation erosion again.

Seriously, it's one thing to hate the search feature. I'm not a huge fan of it miyself. But it's a whole other thing to bring it up when there's another currently live thread that's just gone into the matter right on the subforum's front page.


(*Sigh*) More links for others to use:
 
Never denied it. I posted that when we did the math regarding the volume of aluminium. The amount arrived to does not coincide with what is observed in photographs. So the aluminium is going somewhere that isn't the melting pot.

So in other words, aluminum will melt rather nicely, so long as it isn't an airplane fuselage, inside the airplane in other components, as long as it's not inside the trade center towers before the impact, or combined with any other materials inside the building.

Got it.

Tell me - why didn't we see this in the other tower?
 
Tell me - why didn't we see this in the other tower?

I don't know. It's your camp going all over molten aluminium and fallen floor panels. Did aluminium only melt in one tower and not the other? Did floor panels just fall in one?

Now you're truly arguing against yourself.
 
ah well.

I notice how you dodged the question about Oy's 8 molten materials. Did you take the test yet?

You cannot determine what a material is by the color of the molten material.

We do know that there are 10 very common metals which were in the towers which melt at under 1100C.

Can you eliminate ANY of those common metals? Yes or no? (your handwaving about aluminum and not understanding the basics not withstanding)
 
I don't know. It's your camp going all over molten aluminium and fallen floor panels. Did aluminium only melt in one tower and not the other? Did floor panels just fall in one?

Or did only one have a floor full of UPS units that produced large quantities of molten lead? Or were the details of the floor failures different in each, such that only one had a series of gradients such that the molten aluminium flowed to the outside edge? So many possibilities, all of them valid, and none of them pointing to an inside job.

Now you're truly arguing against yourself.

At least the opponent understands the arguments.

Dave
 
I don't know. It's your camp going all over molten aluminium and fallen floor panels. Did aluminium only melt in one tower and not the other? Did floor panels just fall in one?

Now you're truly arguing against yourself.

I'm not arguing with anybody. I'm asking you to THINK.

Why would this happen in one building and not the other?
 
200px-World_Trade_Center_9-11_Attacks_Illustration_with_Bird%27s-eye_Impact_Locations.jpg


There's a hint.....
 
Oh wait, but there is. There are samples of highly damaged and thinned beams. But the debunkers just handwaved it with another theory they conveniently didn't have to bring proof for.
I suggest you read this

http://www.georgevandervoort.com/fa_lit_papers/World_Trade_Center.pdf

It gives a fully explanation as to why the corrosion was observed with lots of proof and references. I suggest if you have problems with that paper that you email one of the authors. Hint it's on the same site.

You can also read this too

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/metallurgy/WTC_apndxC.htm

There are plenty of other threads on this topic so I suggest you post there if you have further questions.
 

Back
Top Bottom