"Molten Metal" at Ground Zero

Following your logic, since many people watched David Copperfield make the Statue of Liberty disappear both in front of a live audience and on network television in 1983 it must have been magic?

No, that does not follow. First of all, David Copperfield did not make the Statue of Liberty disappear on a news program. His trick wasn't presented by him or by the networks as an actual news event. Not having asked for credibility, Copperfield does not get the automatic benefit of credibility.

Second, The Statue of Liberty cannot disappear. It is impossible under all circumstances. Therefore, the fact that people saw the trick is not very good evidence that the Statue disappeared. There was no cause from which to expect an effect. Logically, it could not have happened so an investigation into what really did happen was warranted. And, in fact, we now know that the Statue of Liberty and all of Liberty Island appeared to vanish because Copperfield moved the platform supporting the camera, curtain and the people in the foreground fifteen feet to the left along a track.

On the other hand, it is not impossible that a building hit by a large passenger jet would burn for an hour and a half before collapsing from the point of the impact down. There was cause and there was effect. It obviously satisfied the demands of logic and there was no reason to go digging around for any further explanation.
 
Back to molten metal. Doesn't anybody think it is the least bit strange that people on a discussion forum are speculating about the chemical composition of the molten metal at GZ, 5 years after? Shouldn't this have been determined from the outset?

The beginning of any scientific endevour is observation and puzzlement. Here you have these unprecedented events, and pools of molten metal under all three rubbles. The obvious question for anyone investigating would be, "What the heck is this?" The lack of curiosity on the part of the official investigators is telling.

NIST completely ignored molten metal for a long time. In response to the truth movement, they finally issued a statement that molten metal, whether it existed or not, was "irrelevant". It seems NIST reasoning is circular, that they are assuming the conclusion. How can this phenomenon which has never been seen before, then suddenly happens three times in one day, be irrelevant?


NIST found it irrelivant in the beginning, and still does. They simply told the naysayers that this is why it was not addressed, because the CT idiots kept harping on it.
 
... On the other hand, it is not impossible that a building hit by a large passenger jet would burn for an hour and a half before collapsing from the point of the impact down. There was cause and there was effect. It obviously satisfied the demands of logic and there was no reason to go digging around for any further explanation.

I've been led to believe that 9-11 was the first time in history where two steel framed buildings completely collapsed after an initial, non-catastrophic impact by a plane and subsequent short duration fire.

You seem to approach this from a causality perspective. An aircraft crashes into a WTC building (cause X) leads to the building collapsing (effect Y). X must not be a "necessary" cause of Y since steel framed buildings have collapsed without a plane being involved. So X must be a "sufficient" cause of Y. However, if X is only a sufficent cause of Y then it seems logical that there could be other causes (Z) for collapse Y.

Or are you suggesting that the causal relationship here is rather an INUS condition ("insufficient and non-redundant parts of unnecessary but sufficient causes")? (note: see Wikipedia's entry for Causality).

If this is either a sufficient causality or an INUS condition I would think, given the assumption that this was the first instance where a plane impact and short duration fire caused the collapse of a steel frame structure, further digging for an explanation is justified.

Forget the "conspiracy theorists" for a second and consider how important understanding the cause of the collapse effects safe architectural design, emergency response, insurance coverage and building demolition. Should the professionals in these industries be satisfied with the simple causality you offer?
 
Should the professionals in these industries be satisfied with the simple causality you offer?
Let's put things into perspective. You, and the people are conversing with, are posting anonymously on an internet forum. A very detailed report was produced by NIST which, I believe, is where the real world go to get a thorough understanding of the issues you raise. Then if they are still confused, they could engage NIST or one of the dozens (hundreds?) of professional organizations that contributed to the report.

Does that make sense or do you think anonymous internet posts should be the source of such valuable information. :)
 
You seem to approach this from a causality perspective. An aircraft crashes into a WTC building (cause X) leads to the building collapsing (effect Y). X must not be a "necessary" cause of Y since steel framed buildings have collapsed without a plane being involved. So X must be a "sufficient" cause of Y. However, if X is only a sufficent cause of Y then it seems logical that there could be other causes (Z) for collapse Y.

You obviously haven't read the NIST report.

The towers collapsed because of the damage caused by the airplanes AND the subsequent fires.
 
I've been led to believe that 9-11 was the first time in history where two steel framed buildings completely collapsed after an initial, non-catastrophic impact by a plane and subsequent short duration fire.

<<<<snip>>>
I think you need to define your terms.
"Non catastrophic impact"?
I am truly looking forward to your definition of catastrophy!
 
I think you need to define your terms.
"Non catastrophic impact"?
I am truly looking forward to your definition of catastrophy!
Well, to his credit, it didn't immediately collapse... I hope that's what he meant.
 
Speaking of molten metal...

Poor troofer thought he'd found "new" photographic evidence of "molten metal" and sent it off to Steven Jones, who was, apparently, "pleased with the find."

After the usual high-fiving by a few other troofers, alas, it is pointed out that there are no pools of molten metal in the photo, and that it is one in a series of photos showing ironworkers cutting with torches.

Ouch - that's gonna leave a mark.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=16269
 
Speaking of molten metal...

Poor troofer thought he'd found "new" photographic evidence of "molten metal" and sent it off to Steven Jones, who was, apparently, "pleased with the find."

After the usual high-fiving by a few other troofers, alas, it is pointed out that there are no pools of molten metal in the photo, and that it is one in a series of photos showing ironworkers cutting with torches.

Ouch - that's gonna leave a mark.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=16269
Is that in the debate forum, being on the banned list and not having an ID, I'm unable to learn about the truth :D
 
Is that in the debate forum, being on the banned list and not having an ID, I'm unable to learn about the truth :D

It's in the "Investigate 9/11" forum. I tried to ninjaproxy-link it for you, but apparently, that is no longer a viable way to view the LC forum.
 
Am I crazy but has no one mentioned what is, probably, the leading cause of heat in the WTC pile? Friction?

The gravitaional energy of the WTC went somewhere, and a very high percentage of it likely was converted to heat via friction. The delta in grav. energy, once the pile stopped moving, was converted almost entirely into heat, plus the chemical energy expended in fires from combustibles and fuel.

I'm not really an expert, but extremely high frictional forces and extremely high pressures at the bottom of a collapsing building would seem to be reach ungodly temperatures. That is, after all, how magma is made.
 
Nevermore, welcome to the forum, If I havent already said so.

I've been led to believe that 9-11 was the first time in history where two steel framed buildings completely collapsed after an initial, non-catastrophic impact by a plane and subsequent short duration fire.

Well given it is the first time that a jet airliner has crashed into a skyscraper (first that I know of), there is no precedent, so yes it is the first time for a number of things, including the collapse.

What is your frame of reference for calling the fires "short duration". I will assume until you correct me that you mean short compared to some other highrise fires that have lasted for hours and hours without the building collapsing...but in ALL of those cases, there was no impact damage, no severing of supportr columns, no removal of fireproofing.

You seem to approach this from a causality perspective. An aircraft crashes into a WTC building (cause X) leads to the building collapsing (effect Y). X must not be a "necessary" cause of Y since steel framed buildings have collapsed without a plane being involved. So X must be a "sufficient" cause of Y. However, if X is only a sufficent cause of Y then it seems logical that there could be other causes (Z) for collapse Y.

if your range is 0<possibility<infinity, than yes I suppose there are other "possible" causes, but given the evidence to date, the overwhelming MOST PROBABLE CAUSE is:

...the combination of Jet Airliner impact with subsequent severing of support columns, combined with removal of 60% or more of the spray on firep proofing via the impacts, and the multi-level (8-10 levels each) fires heated to much higher temps that that of the igniting jet fuel, via contents of the building burning, that together caused the collapse of the towers.

Or are you suggesting that the causal relationship here is rather an INUS condition ("insufficient and non-redundant parts of unnecessary but sufficient causes")? (note: see Wikipedia's entry for Causality).

ummm ya okie dokie...moving on.

If this is either a sufficient causality or an INUS condition I would think, given the assumption that this was the first instance where a plane impact and short duration fire caused the collapse of a steel frame structure, further digging for an explanation is justified.

5 years worth of your suggested "digging" has yielded jack squat in terms of legitimate evidence for any alternate theories. And I disagree, if we use your theory, than what about the possibility of "no-planes"? Should we waste tax dollars looking into that. Or how about some new alien technology?

Forget the "conspiracy theorists" for a second and consider how important understanding the cause of the collapse effects safe architectural design, emergency response, insurance coverage and building demolition. Should the professionals in these industries be satisfied with the simple causality you offer?

yes, because hundreds of qualified experts in the field looked at the evidence and came up with the MOST PROBABLE CAUSE for the collapses. Other theories, had they any legitimacy, I am sure would have been considered by these intelligent, patriotic individuals.


TAM
 
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If you look at the Windsor fire collapse vids.
It looks as if the tower was filled with thermite.

It's like what was seen at WTC2 X 50.
 
Unprecedented?

Do you have any actual evidence that this [molten metal]is unprecedented, or (as usual) do you just throw this out because it sounds good?

Molten metal is not uncommon in fires, having been found after fires of all types

Evidence please, and please forward your evidence to Dr. Jones, he has been requesting evidence of molten metal from fires for a year now. The metal observed and photographed at GZ cannot be aluminum, as it is observed to be solid at orange temps, and dripping liquid at light yellow temps.
 
... Does that make sense or do you think anonymous internet posts should be the source of such valuable information ... :)

Of course that makes sense. I would hope that any professionals involved would rely on the official reports rather than any sort of conjecture. My post was an attempt to understand the causality that Loss Leader is using to (if I understood his post correctly) dismiss any need to investigate the collapse beyond what we saw on television the day of the event.

... The towers collapsed because of the damage caused by the airplanes AND the subsequent fires...

I know the NIST report (which I still haven't had time to read in it's entirety but plan to do so) attributes the collapse to both the plane impact and fire damage. I'm sure you see how this conflicts with the simple cause and effect explanation that Loss Leader suggested. The plane impact seems like an INUS condition to me.

You keep using this phrase (short duration fire) please quatify it.

By "short" I was trying to make reference to Loss Leader's "...would burn for an hour and a half ..." Sorry for the lack of precision but I thought it was appropriate in the context of my response.

I think you need to define your terms.
"Non catastrophic impact"?
I am truly looking forward to your definition of catastrophy!

I was trying to differentiate between a building which may have fallen immediately after the impact of a plane as opposed to one which remained standing for a period of time before collapsing. Both would certainly be a catastrophy.

Just out of curiosity, why does it seem only the "conspiracy theory" folks are held to a high standard in presenting an argument? Is it not considered appropriate to point out sweeping generalizations or possible logical flaws wherever they occur?
 
A very detailed report was produced by NIST which, I believe, is where the real world go to get a thorough understanding of the issues you raise. Then if they are still confused, they could engage NIST or one of the dozens (hundreds?) of professional organizations that contributed to the report.

False on 2 counts David

1. NIST report is indeed very detailed on the jet impacts and fires. But contains zero detail on the behavior of the "collapses". Zip. Nada.

2. The professional organizations and structural engineers who cooked up NIST are most certainly NOT talking. I would love dearly to get Bazant or any number of guys to answer a few questions.
 
False on 2 counts David

1. NIST report is indeed very detailed on the jet impacts and fires. But contains zero detail on the behavior of the "collapses". Zip. Nada.
The fact that you aren't able to understand the report doesn't mean the data isn't available. I agree the report does not address the asinine ideas CTists like you pull out of your butt. Here is a link, tell me exactly what you think is missing and why. But don't bother if the why is you looking at a picture or video and thinking something doesn't look right to you.
http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-6D.pdf
2. The professional organizations and structural engineers who cooked up NIST are most certainly NOT talking. I would love dearly to get Bazant or any number of guys to answer a few questions.
I'm calling your bluff, show me evidence of an intelligent and honest attempt at getting information please along with the response.

edit to add link and additional comment to #1
 
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