• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

"Molten Metal" at Ground Zero

Flame temperature is different from glow temperature.

The key here is that the equation has nothing to do with color, or even the intensity of light. P=kTB tells us how much electricity is produced.
P is the power in Watts, k is Boltzmann's constant (1.38 x 10^-23 J/K), B is the bandwidth in Hertz. I'm not quite sure what number you'd want to fill in for B, but even if I did, this equation doesn't predict the color or intensity of the light produced. Each element has it's own properties and will produce a slightly different color spectrum. And even if this light has a constant intensity, most metals at lower temperatures (under about 4000K) produce more infrared light than visible light, so most of the light would be invisible to the human eye.
 
I read somewhere that there was something like 3,000 miles of electrical wiring in the Twin Towers. Wouldn't that mean a considerable amount of copper in the buildings?
 
I'm having a hard time understanding something related to the fire in the debris pile.

Both towers were 110 stories high. According to the Popular Mechanics website, WTC 1 was struck between the 94th and 98th floor and WTC 2 was struck between the 77th and 85th floor. The fire spread upward and down-ward until the collapse after 102 and 56 minutes respectively.

Popular Mechanics states:
... NIST also believes that a great deal of the spray-on fireproofing insulation was likely knocked off the steel beams that were in the path of the crashing jets, leaving the metal more vulnerable to the heat.


Given a "pancake" collapse of both towers, why is the material at the bottom the hottest? Wouldn't both buildings have approximately 70 or 90 floors worth of material including strata of intact fireproofing and insulation laying in a pile with only approximately 60 (40 + 20) floors of burning material on top?

The Popular Mechanics web site also states:

The NIST investigation revealed that plane debris sliced through the utility shafts at the North Tower's core, creating a conduit for burning jet fuel--and fiery destruction throughout the building. "It's very hard to document where the fuel went," says Forman Williams, a NIST adviser and a combustion expert, "but if it's atomized and combustible and gets to an ignition source, it'll go off."

Burning fuel traveling down the elevator shafts would have disrupted the elevator systems and caused extensive damage to the lobbies. NIST heard first-person testimony that "some elevators slammed right down" to the ground floor. "The doors cracked open on the lobby floor and flames came out and people died," says James Quintiere, an engineering professor at the University of Maryland and a NIST adviser. A similar observation was made in the French documentary "9/11," by Jules and Gedeon Naudet. As Jules Naudet entered the North Tower lobby, minutes after the first aircraft struck, he saw victims on fire, a scene he found too horrific to film.
This would seem to explain how fire reached the lower floors or even the basement but two things strike me as odd.

I thought I read somewhere that the WTC was designed with a compartmentalized elevator system to prevent fuel from travelling the length of the building due to the 1945 B-25 accident at the Empire State building?

Secondly, if a substantial amount of jet fuel travelled down the elevator shafts causing fires in (let's assume) the basement, does that leave enough jet fuel at the impact point to weaken the steel?

Again, from Popular Mechanics:

But jet fuel wasn't the only thing burning, notes Forman Williams, a professor of engineering at the University of California, San Diego, and one of seven structural engineers and fire experts that PM consulted. He says that while the jet fuel was the catalyst for the WTC fires, the resulting inferno was intensified by the combustible material inside the buildings, including rugs, curtains, furniture and paper. NIST reports that pockets of fire hit 1832°F.
Even as a "catalyst" I'm having a hard time with this.

Lastly, the impact of the second plane into WTC 2 resulted in a massive fireball which I believe is attributed to jet fuel exploding outside of the building. In this instance does the jet fuel explode outside, act as a catalyst and travel down the elevator shafts to feed fires in the basement?

Please note: I'm not trying to stir up trouble but rather just looking to understand what, in my mind, seems like a contradiction.

** Edited for formatting issues
 
The key here is that the equation has nothing to do with color, or even the intensity of light. P=kTB tells us how much electricity is produced.
P is the power in Watts, k is Boltzmann's constant (1.38 x 10^-23 J/K), B is the bandwidth in Hertz. I'm not quite sure what number you'd want to fill in for B, but even if I did, this equation doesn't predict the color or intensity of the light produced. Each element has it's own properties and will produce a slightly different color spectrum. And even if this light has a constant intensity, most metals at lower temperatures (under about 4000K) produce more infrared light than visible light, so most of the light would be invisible to the human eye.

I have no idea what you're discussing, but it is apparent that whatever it is, it isn't anything close to what I'm talking about.

Blackbody radiation depends ONLY on temperature, period. And this is what would determine the color a metal would glow at. I don't see where you're pulling in Watts. And your statement "this equation doesn't predict the color or intensity of the light produced" shows that you've apparently googled something and based a false conclusion from an inappropriate application of Planc's law of black-body radiation. Even assuming this was a correct equation to use here, the bandwidth and frequency are related, and these would determine the color of the light produced.

As to the last part, are you claiming that metals don't glow until 4000K? Easily disproven by a simple coal bed and bellows.

Do you actually know what you're saying here? Or what point of mine you're addressing? Becasue you quoted my statement about flame temeprature, but your "explanation" talks about metals, so my only conclusion is that you're an Internet expert.
 
Given a "pancake" collapse of both towers, why is the material at the bottom the hottest? Wouldn't both buildings have approximately 70 or 90 floors worth of material including strata of intact fireproofing and insulation laying in a pile with only approximately 60 (40 + 20) floors of burning material on top?

The pancake collapse was NISTs early theory, which has since been revised.

I thought I read somewhere that the WTC was designed with a compartmentalized elevator system to prevent fuel from travelling the length of the building due to the 1945 B-25 accident at the Empire State building?

Source?

Everything I've seen or that's been shown has satted the opposite, that the shafts were continuous all the way up.

Secondly, if a substantial amount of jet fuel travelled down the elevator shafts causing fires in (let's assume) the basement, does that leave enough jet fuel at the impact point to weaken the steel?

It helps to actually read the NIST report before declaring it wrong or suspiscious. Then you could argue about points actually made in the report.

The jet fuel was the initiator of the fire. It was burned off quickly, and the only role it played in weakneing the steel was to start the fire over a large area. Office materials, furniture, and similar items provided more than enough fuel for the fire to continue to burn and to weaken the steel.

Even as a "catalyst" I'm having a hard time with this.

Just because you don't understand doesn't make it false. Do you have any specific, supportable objections to the conclusions?

Lastly, the impact of the second plane into WTC 2 resulted in a massive fireball which I believe is attributed to jet fuel exploding outside of the building. In this instance does the jet fuel explode outside, act as a catalyst and travel down the elevator shafts to feed fires in the basement?

Some is outside, some inside. These planes started with a bit over 10,000 gallons of fuel each, that's about 30 tons. More than enough for both.

Please note: I'm not trying to stir up trouble but rather just looking to understand what, in my mind, seems like a contradiction.

Then I'd suggest actually reading the relevent portions of the NIST report, as mmuch of what you seem to be having trouble with is because you are relying on CTer's re-interpretations of NISTs statements, rather than what was actually claimed.
 
I'm having a hard time understanding something related to the fire in the debris pile.

Both towers were 110 stories high. According to the Popular Mechanics website, WTC 1 was struck between the 94th and 98th floor and WTC 2 was struck between the 77th and 85th floor. The fire spread upward and down-ward until the collapse after 102 and 56 minutes respectively.

Popular Mechanics states:


Given a "pancake" collapse of both towers, why is the material at the bottom the hottest? Wouldn't both buildings have approximately 70 or 90 floors worth of material including strata of intact fireproofing and insulation laying in a pile with only approximately 60 (40 + 20) floors of burning material on top?

The Popular Mechanics web site also states:


This would seem to explain how fire reached the lower floors or even the basement but two things strike me as odd.

I thought I read somewhere that the WTC was designed with a compartmentalized elevator system to prevent fuel from travelling the length of the building due to the 1945 B-25 accident at the Empire State building?

Secondly, if a substantial amount of jet fuel travelled down the elevator shafts causing fires in (let's assume) the basement, does that leave enough jet fuel at the impact point to weaken the steel?

Again, from Popular Mechanics:


Even as a "catalyst" I'm having a hard time with this.

Lastly, the impact of the second plane into WTC 2 resulted in a massive fireball which I believe is attributed to jet fuel exploding outside of the building. In this instance does the jet fuel explode outside, act as a catalyst and travel down the elevator shafts to feed fires in the basement?

Please note: I'm not trying to stir up trouble but rather just looking to understand what, in my mind, seems like a contradiction.

** Edited for formatting issues

I'll need to answer in brief since I am a tad busy at work today, but:
RE 1) Bottom of the debris pile was most insulated and therefore most conducive to the oven effect

RE 2) Approximations of the elevator shafts:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/innovation2.html
http://img91.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page146rb.png
http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2515&d=1159660984

RE 3) I think by "catalyst" he means that it ignited other fuel sources in the towers and it contributed to the rapid spread of the fire.
 
Secondly, if a substantial amount of jet fuel travelled down the elevator shafts causing fires in (let's assume) the basement, does that leave enough jet fuel at the impact point to weaken the steel?

Heck yeah. With only 800 gallons to work with, the B-25 that hit the ESB managed to cause fires and damage to both the lobby and its impact area.

By comparison the the jets that hit the WTC towers had about 10,000 gallons.
 
I have no idea what you're discussing, but it is apparent that whatever it is, it isn't anything close to what I'm talking about.

Blackbody radiation depends ONLY on temperature, period. And this is what would determine the color a metal would glow at. I don't see where you're pulling in Watts. And your statement "this equation doesn't predict the color or intensity of the light produced" shows that you've apparently googled something and based a false conclusion from an inappropriate application of Planc's law of black-body radiation. Even assuming this was a correct equation to use here, the bandwidth and frequency are related, and these would determine the color of the light produced.

As to the last part, are you claiming that metals don't glow until 4000K? Easily disproven by a simple coal bed and bellows.

Do you actually know what you're saying here? Or what point of mine you're addressing? Becasue you quoted my statement about flame temeprature, but your "explanation" talks about metals, so my only conclusion is that you're an Internet expert.

Yeah, I see what you mean. I quoted the wrong thing.

What I was trying to point out is that the original discussion of what color and intensity the light was had absolutely nothing to do with the equation P=kTB given us by CurtC. I am no expert on black-body radiation, but I recognized this equation as one that is usually used by audiophiles trying to figure out how much interference they will recieve on wires.

Maybe I'm wrong, but my basic understanding of this equation led me to believe it was a red herring.
 
As to the last part, are you claiming that metals don't glow until 4000K? Easily disproven by a simple coal bed and bellows.

What I said was "most metals at lower temperatures (under about 4000K) produce more infrared light than visible light". Most and more being the key words. Obviously they produce visible light, since iron definitely glows at the low temperatures produced by a wood fire. I can't quote exact ratios or any such thing, but I remember this being the primary reason that we use tungsten in our light bulbs. Because tungsten has a particularly high melting point, and because metals tend to produce a greater percentage of visible light at these very high temperatures.

Sorry to get all up in your feathers...
 
Welcome to the forums, Nevermore.

You seem to be under the assumption that the fire from high in the buildings was the source of the heat in the basements after the collapses. While that's undoubtedly true to some extent, the collapses caused new underground fires, fuel leaks, exploding cars in the parking garage, etc.

Jet fuel did travel down the elevator shafts and cause explosions in both towers. I've compiled many accounts of this event in the north tower here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1907291&postcount=40

More accounts can be found in this part of the NIST report, beginning on page 76
NIST NCSTAR 1-7 Occupant Behavior, Egress, and Emergency Communications

Even William Rodriguez, who as far as I know is the only person [edit: the only person who was there that I know of] who claims that a bomb went off in the towers, told me that he smelled the jet fuel in the basement after the explosion.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, I see what you mean. I quoted the wrong thing.

What I was trying to point out is that the original discussion of what color and intensity the light was had absolutely nothing to do with the equation P=kTB given us by CurtC. I am no expert on black-body radiation, but I recognized this equation as one that is usually used by audiophiles trying to figure out how much interference they will recieve on wires.

Maybe I'm wrong, but my basic understanding of this equation led me to believe it was a red herring.

What I said was "most metals at lower temperatures (under about 4000K) produce more infrared light than visible light". Most and more being the key words. Obviously they produce visible light, since iron definitely glows at the low temperatures produced by a wood fire. I can't quote exact ratios or any such thing, but I remember this being the primary reason that we use tungsten in our light bulbs. Because tungsten has a particularly high melting point, and because metals tend to produce a greater percentage of visible light at these very high temperatures.

Sorry to get all up in your feathers...

My apologies, as well. I just had no idea where you were going there, and typically when that happens it's a CTer trying to seem like they aren't a CTer but "just asking questions". ;) I tend to get a bit short-tempered, as well, on a regular cycle while dealing with some of these people :)

I think that formula covers electrical, but I was talking more generally about black body radiation. The radiation produced depends only on temeprature, not on the material in question. Wikipedia has a good article on it that lists the base equations and gives an understandable explanation.
 
I'd like to jump in about my previous P=kTB comments. Yes, I am an electrical engineer, so that's what's familiar to me, but this formula does relate to radiated energy from a body, as well as energy conducted through wires. In radio communications, P=kTB is a common formula, indicating that the amount of noise energy you get at the input to your antenna is proportional to the temperature of the object it's pointed at, and proportional to the bandwidth you're measuring it in.

Where I went wrong, and I'm speaking here at the fringes of my knowledge, bumps into the famous problem of classical physics, with its kTB forumula, and quantum physics, with its Planck black body radiation. These effects start becoming noticeable when the frequency of the radiation you're looking at is right around the optical range; at the typical microwave frequencies that radio guys work at, the classical equation works just fine.

Anyway, I was aware of these effects, but did not realize that there was an extra factor called emissivity thrown in there. I still don't understand that. Please disregard my earlier comments on kTB and its relation to color vs. temperature.
 
You know...

I never saw CurtC bring up that equation. I completely missed that line. I was working off other information.

NOW some of this makes more sense, and seems a miscommunication amongst all of us. I wasn't referencing that equation because I'd missed it, Zygar thought I was because he hadn't, and likely was confused by wtf I was talking about, and then I thought he'd pulled it in completely out of left field.

So, let's just skim over that whole bit, eh?

:D
 
Back to molten metal. Doesn't anybody think it is the least bit strange that people on a discussion forum are speculating about the chemical composition of the molten metal at GZ, 5 years after? Shouldn't this have been determined from the outset?

The beginning of any scientific endevour is observation and puzzlement. Here you have these unprecedented events, and pools of molten metal under all three rubbles. The obvious question for anyone investigating would be, "What the heck is this?" The lack of curiosity on the part of the official investigators is telling.

NIST completely ignored molten metal for a long time. In response to the truth movement, they finally issued a statement that molten metal, whether it existed or not, was "irrelevant". It seems NIST reasoning is circular, that they are assuming the conclusion. How can this phenomenon which has never been seen before, then suddenly happens three times in one day, be irrelevant?
 
The beginning of any scientific endevour is observation and puzzlement. Here you have these unprecedented events, and pools of molten metal under all three rubbles. The obvious question for anyone investigating would be, "What the heck is this?" The lack of curiosity on the part of the official investigators is telling.

What it is telling of is just how baldly obvious the causes of the collapse of the towers were. Considering the fact that millions of people saw it on TV and thousands in person, considering the information that we have from flight controlers and radar, and considering just how collosally stupid any other explanation is, I am not at all surprised that there was not a meticulous catalogue of every single molecule found after 9/11.

Only years later when memories start to become corrupted, conflated, repressed and invented do 9/11 deniers bring up these concerns. And only after something becomes an issue do experts look into it.

I mean, a controlled demolition that starts in the middle of a building? What level of learning disability does one need to believe that?
 
The beginning of any scientific endevour is observation and puzzlement. Here you have these unprecedented events, and pools of molten metal under all three rubbles. The obvious question for anyone investigating would be, "What the heck is this?" The lack of curiosity on the part of the official investigators is telling.

Unprecedented?

Do you have any actual evidence that this is unprecedented, or (as usual) do you just throw this out because it sounds good?

Molten metal is not uncommon in fires, having been found after fires of all types (including standard, basic house fires). That the metal stayed hot for weeks by being insulated underground is also neither suprising nor unprecedented. Add to this that any theory of explosives of thermite would not fit with the week-long molten metal findings, and there's really nothing here to look into (except in the mind of a CTer such as yourself, who decides the government is guilty before examining the evidence).
 
What it is telling of is just how baldly obvious the causes of the collapse of the towers were. Considering the fact that millions of people saw it on TV and thousands in person, considering the information that we have from flight controlers and radar, and considering just how collosally stupid any other explanation is, I am not at all surprised that there was not a meticulous catalogue of every single molecule found after 9/11...

Following your logic, since many people watched David Copperfield make the Statue of Liberty disappear both in front of a live audience and on network television in 1983 it must have been magic?

The fact that planes crashed into the towers hasn't been disputed so the information from flight controllers and radar is irrelevant.
 

Back
Top Bottom