MLM

[maximara]

And you continue to outright lie.

No I don't but you do if you are indeed Insider201283.

Where have I pushed for Kiyosaki to be used as a Wikipedia source?

"Having said that, I see now you're referring to the second Kiyosaki book, which is coauthored by Donald Trump. Do I really need to provide references for Trump as an expert on "business"? Though published by Kiyosaki's press, it clearly goes beyond "vanity publishing" and I don't think anyone seriously believes Trump and Kiyosaki couldn't have got another publisher if they wanted" --Insider201283 (talk) 22:29, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

FitzPatrick, Taylor et.al from PyramidSchemeAlert were posted on WP:RS for discussion and rejected as reliable sources by independent third parties.

Actually Arthur Rubin, TheEditor22, and myself were in agreement that FitzPatrick and Taylor were usable

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Multi-level_marketing/Archive_2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_1#When_does_a_section_become_long_enough_that_we_can_move_it_someplace_else.3F. The TheEditor22 say the same thing I did and it had been shown in the past Insider201283 had COI issues with Will_Beback and Orange Mike made posts about it. Will Beback's 22:14, 27 December 2006 (UTC) comments was a total smack down of Insider201283's previous edits on specific MLMs but was part of the kind of nonsense we were seeing on the talk page.

The fact the references were not removed after that shows that the consensus was that Taylor, Fitzpatrick, at all were considered reliable.

The proof is all there.

 

[icerat]

No I don't but you do if you are indeed Insider201283.

As is the norm, I was referring to our conversation on this forum. I don't even remember that comment you cited from another website a long time ago! It appears I was talking more about Trump than Kiyosaki anyway.

Actually Arthur Rubin, TheEditor22, and myself were in agreement that FitzPatrick and Taylor were usable

So what (assuming it's true, I can't be bothered checking)? Lot's of people have opinions. PSA was posted on WP:RS Noticeboard and rejected.

The fact the references were not removed after that shows that the consensus was that Taylor, Fitzpatrick, at all were considered reliable.

No it shows I couldn't be bothered spending the time debating you about it. One day I might.

The proof is all there.

Indeed it is.

 

[NewtonTrino]

I really don't understand all the back and forth here. I see the burden of proof on those who claim it's a good business. If it's so great how come you can't come up with a few successful people to come and talk about it with us? A few directs and above who are willing to discuss the details of their business would suffice. What possible reason would these people have for not being honest about their experiences?

 

[maximara]

I really don't understand all the back and forth here. I see the burden of proof on those who claim it's a good business. If it's so great how come you can't come up with a few successful people to come and talk about it with us? A few directs and above who are willing to discuss the details of their business would suffice. What possible reason would these people have for not being honest about their experiences?

More to the point is why do so many peer reviewed articles use FitzPatrick and Taylor while despite repeated requests to Insider201283 no similar articles in support of Len Clements or other MLM supporters could be presented. That issues was never countered.

The fact is that Insider201283 had gotten read the riot act by Will Beback regarding MLM companies:

"You have identified that you are in a business relationship with the corporation Alticor/Amway/Quixtar, and that you are the proprietor of a large website devoted to defending them. That establishes your COI."
-Will Beback · † · 23:27, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

The whining on how the people who oversee Wikipedia "seem to lack the knowledge of how Multi-level Marketing or Network Marketing works and thus often, almost instinctively, believe the same, false, myths these "critics" promote." failed to get the point that was raised later on the Multi-level marketing talk page--it is not understanding that counts but what could be shown by reliable source material. The critics were being used by peer reviewed material while counters to the claims of those critics in similar material was not produced.

 

[icerat]

More to the point is why do so many peer reviewed articles use FitzPatrick and Taylor while despite repeated requests to Insider201283 no similar articles in support of Len Clements or other MLM supporters could be presented. That issues was never countered.

So many? There's hardly any that quote FitzPatrick and Taylor! I can give *more* that quote Len Clements - but guess what, Clement's website shouldn't be used as a WP source either!

The fact is that Insider201283 had gotten read the riot act by Will Beback regarding MLM companies:

You seem to have missed the fact the Will Beback and I ended up in WP arbitration and the arbitrator essentially sided with me. Will and I have had no real issues since.

The critics were being used by peer reviewed material while counters to the claims of those critics in similar material was not produced.

I haven't spent much time or effort on the MLM article. Last I looked at it (last year I think) it required rewriting from the ground up. I'm avoiding it because I know from past experience that thanks to people like yourself, who cherrypick data and refuse to consider alternatives to their own obstinate beliefs, that it will likely also end up in arbitration or elsewhere to get rewritten in an encyclopediac, NPOV manner. It's an exhausting and time consuming exercise and frankly I'm not currently motivated to do it.

 

[icerat]

I really don't understand all the back and forth here. I see the burden of proof on those who claim it's a good business. If it's so great how come you can't come up with a few successful people to come and talk about it with us?

This thread was a direct result of a podcast that had many falsehoods on it. I addresses those claims. I would not invite someone else to this discussion because I believe it would be a waste of their time. Heck, I think it's a waste of my time, so why would I invite someone els?

A few directs and above who are willing to discuss the details of their business would suffice. What possible reason would these people have for not being honest about their experiences?

Why don't you got to AmwayTalk and ask? We've even had a Crown posting there. There's been at least 2 Diamonds I know of, and numerous silvers and above.

They don't spend that much time there, they know it's not particularly productive use of their time. Neither is me spending time here, but I didn't join the JREF forums (or JREF for that matter) to discuss MLM.

 

[NewtonTrino]

This thread was a direct result of a podcast that had many falsehoods on it. I addresses those claims. I would not invite someone else to this discussion because I believe it would be a waste of their time. Heck, I think it's a waste of my time, so why would I invite someone els?

Good point.

Why don't you got to AmwayTalk and ask? We've even had a Crown posting there. There's been at least 2 Diamonds I know of, and numerous silvers and above.

They don't spend that much time there, they know it's not particularly productive use of their time. Neither is me spending time here, but I didn't join the JREF forums (or JREF for that matter) to discuss MLM.

It's not all about me. I have offline access to diamonds, directs etc. It would be to convince all of the skeptics here.

Of course there is no way a diamond is going to be open about their business. Their downline might find out where the money comes from...

 

[icerat]

Of course there is no way a diamond is going to be open about their business. Their downline might find out where the money comes from...

I've posted this before, but here it is again. In the "system" I operate with, in North America in 2007, here's the average "system" incomes (Tools, Events and Speaker Fees) -

Diamond and above <$23,000/yr
Emerald <$7000/yr

This is from an authoritative source. Now I'm not in anyway claiming all systems have similar numbers, I know they don't (or at least didn't) and it's an average, so some are much higher but just as clearly when you compare to the average Diamond income from Amway (>$150,000/yr) it's not exactly the system" where "the money comes from" is it?

 

[NewtonTrino]

I've posted this before, but here it is again. In the "system" I operate with, in North America in 2007, here's the average "system" incomes (Tools, Events and Speaker Fees) -

Diamond and above <$23,000/yr
Emerald <$7000/yr

This is from an authoritative source. Now I'm not in anyway claiming all systems have similar numbers, I know they don't (or at least didn't) and it's an average, so some are much higher but just as clearly when you compare to the average Diamond income from Amway (>$150,000/yr) it's not exactly the system" where "the money comes from" is it?

It's fine that you believe this "authoritative" source but I don't. For me to believe this I would need to see a statistically valid sample of independently verifiable incomes.

Why is it so hard to believe that you are being lied to about where the money goes?

 

[icerat]

It's fine that you believe this "authoritative" source but I don't. For me to believe this I would need to see a statistically valid sample of independently verifiable incomes.

Why is it so hard to believe that you are being lied to about where the money goes?

(1) Because this information comes from a good friend who is not an IBO but has access to the data
(2) Because this information is consistent with statistics on "tool sales" within these size businesses with the organisation
(3) Because this information is consistent with statistics on "tool sales" within my own Amway business
(4) Because this information is consistent with information received from friends who have reached those levels, and whom I knew *before* they or I became IBOs
(5) Because this information is consistent with tool rebate information I have received from yet another source
(6) Because this information is consistent with a spreadsheet of tool rebate payments I acquired from yet another source

There is no inconsistency in the information obtained from a variety of different first hand sources, many of whom don't know each other.

And what do we know about "the system" you were connected to, compared to the one I work with -

(1) sells tools at higher prices (or did)
(2) sells more tools to IBOs, thus higher tool income per "pin"
(3) has fewer expenses, thus more overall profit
(4) shares the profit amongst fewer people, thus more per person profit

What I honestly don't get is how someone as obviously intelligent as you can be so damn obstinate and refuse to even consider that perhaps , just maybe, no grand conspiracy is needed, perhaps an organisation you have ZERO experience with actually does operate differently to the one you have experience with.

 

[NewtonTrino]

(1) Because this information comes from a good friend who is not an IBO but has access to the data

They have no generally recognized authority and aren't available for independent review.

(2) Because this information is consistent with statistics on "tool sales" within these size businesses with the organisation

No it's not. Not in my experience. Which is just as valid as yours BTW if not more so as I've personally seen a larger cross section of actual business numbers than you.

(3) Because this information is consistent with statistics on "tool sales" within my own Amway business

Maybe you suck at selling tools?

(4) Because this information is consistent with information received from friends who have reached those levels, and whom I knew *before* they or I became IBOs

Verification?

(5) Because this information is consistent with tool rebate information I have received from yet another source

Again, this is just hearsay.

(6) Because this information is consistent with a spreadsheet of tool rebate payments I acquired from yet another source

Again hearsay. Feel free to post the spreedsheet and allow us to analyze it.

There is no inconsistency in the information obtained from a variety of different first hand sources, many of whom don't know each other.

Or they all have access to the same BS information that's passed on as real.

And what do we know about "the system" you were connected to, compared to the one I work with -

(1) sells tools at higher prices (or did)
(2) sells more tools to IBOs, thus higher tool income per "pin"
(3) has fewer expenses, thus more overall profit
(4) shares the profit amongst fewer people, thus more per person profit

Quite possible that the systems I've seen are more lucrative. However there is a massive amount of money missing from your numbers.

What I honestly don't get is how someone as obviously intelligent as you can be so damn obstinate and refuse to even consider that perhaps , just maybe, no grand conspiracy is needed, perhaps an organisation you have ZERO experience with actually does operate differently to the one you have experience with.

Because I've seen it with my own eyes and I can do basic math, which you seem to fail at.

 

[icerat]

They have no generally recognized authority and aren't available for independent review.

Oh believe me, they have recognized authority for this data. Are you a recognized authority for the data you claim? No.

No it's not. Not in my experience.

You have no experience with this organisation.

Which is just as valid as yours BTW if not more so as I've personally seen a larger cross section of actual business numbers than you.

Right, so statistics based on analysis of a 100% population of an organisation don't count for assessing that organisation, but your individual hearsay figures from a different population altogether do? Yeah that makes sense.

Maybe you suck at selling tools?

Maybe our goal is to sell Amway products, and tools are just ... tools ... for achieving that.

Verification?

Verification of what? That I have friends who I knew before they joined the business and now they are platinum and above?

Again, this is just hearsay.

No, it was actual documentation, the official rebate schedule for their level in the business.

Again hearsay. Feel free to post the spreedsheet and allow us to analyze it.

Nope, not going to post someones private data.

Or they all have access to the same BS information that's passed on as real.

And the Queen is an 8 foot tall alien reptile, yeah I get it. You prefer some grand conspiracy

Quite possible that the systems I've seen are more lucrative. However there is a massive amount of money missing from your numbers.

Rot. You have ZERO idea of where the money goes with this organisation. You have your little view of one little part of the Amway world, and for no reason at all (and plenty of reasons not to) you refuse to even consider the possibility that perhaps it's not representative of every part of the entire world.

Because I've seen it with my own eyes and I can do basic math, which you seem to fail at.

Sorry, but that's an outright lie. We have established before that you have ZERO experience with the organisation I'm talking about here.

But please, go ahead, prove me wrong. Show the math.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Oh believe me, they have recognized authority for this data. Are you a recognized authority for the data you claim? No.

I'm not selling anything.

You have no experience with this organisation.

I've seen scammers before.

Right, so statistics based on analysis of a 100% population of an organisation don't count for assessing that organisation, but your individual hearsay figures from a different population altogether do? Yeah that makes sense.

Statistics are often abused. I want to see the underlying data so I can do my own analysis. Otherwise it's just dust in the wind.

Maybe our goal is to sell Amway products, and tools are just ... tools ... for achieving that.

Maybe you are brainwashed into thinking this?

Verification of what? That I have friends who I knew before they joined the business and now they are platinum and above?

Independent verification of what they are telling you.

No, it was actual documentation, the official rebate schedule for their level in the business.

Which doesn't show where all of the money goes.

Nope, not going to post someones private data.

Of course not, it's a scam.

And the Queen is an 8 foot tall alien reptile, yeah I get it. You prefer some grand conspiracy

No conspiracy, just a bunch of people brainwashing others. It happens all of the time, this isn't exactly uncharted ground. Certainly you would agree some of the organizations involved are completely morally bankrupt scammers like Dexter? Right?

Rot. You have ZERO idea of where the money goes with this organisation. You have your little view of one little part of the Amway world, and for no reason at all (and plenty of reasons not to) you refuse to even consider the possibility that perhaps it's not representative of every part of the entire world.

Sorry, I can do basic math. I also run a business and have a very good idea of what it takes to produce the kind of materials that they sell.

Sorry, but that's an outright lie. We have established before that you have ZERO experience with the organisation I'm talking about here.

But please, go ahead, prove me wrong. Show the math.

Already done in other threads. Bottom line is that a diamond can reap 100's of 1000's of dollars a year in profit off of tools without much trouble. Much more than they make from amway income.

Very simple formula: 5000 people in a diamond organization, 25% buying, $100 worth of tools per month = $125,000 PER MONTH gross on tools. As tools cost little to nothing to produce the only thing that eats into this is paying the upline/downline. The diamonds get the lion share percentage of each transaction (which is the opposite of how products work, products the lower you are in the chain the more you make, tools the high you are in the pyramid the more you make per tool making the "tools" much more profitable per unit of volume than the amway products).

 

[NewtonTrino]

Bottom line, a diamond would have to be a moron to only make $23k a year from tools when they are more than likely getting something like $1,000,000+ a year in tools gross.

 

[icerat]

Very simple formula: 5000 people in a diamond organization, 25% buying, $100 worth of tools per month = $125,000 PER MONTH gross on tools.

$100/mth would be the *high* end, not an average, representing maybe 5-10%, not 25%. An average would be closer to $50/mth, if that.

Even then, in perspective, your figure is less than a quarter of the $640,000 a month in Amway revenue generated (excl retail markup) in the average Diamond business (source Woodward et.al vs Quixtar)

As tools cost little to nothing to produce the only thing that eats into this is paying the upline/downline. The diamonds get the lion share percentage of each transaction

This is one area you're getting things very wrong, at least with how it works in our organisation. For a $7 CD, the *total* payout to all Platinums and above is $2.20 (over 20,000CDs a month). A very large Diamond (Crown Ambassador most likely) may thus earn from $0.00 (for a purchase in a large downline) to $2.20 (for a purchase within their own personal group).

$2.20 is not remotely a "lions share" of $7.00.

I'm also curious as to where you think the money comes from to employ over 300 staff in 27 offices around the globe, since you think manufacturing costs and volume rebates are the only expenses.

(which is the opposite of how products work, products the lower you are in the chain the more you make, tools the high you are in the pyramid the more you make per tool making the "tools" much more profitable per unit of volume than the amway products).

Again, not correct with the N21 system. As a typical platinum you'll be getting $0.50 to $1.00/cd. As a typical Diamond, your net after downline platinums/emeralds etc are paid out would be $0.00 to $0.70/cd. On personal group sales a typical Diamond (assuming 6000-8000CDs sold a month) might make $1.40 on a $7.00 CD, which is 20%. On an Amway product they make 25%+.

 

[NewtonTrino]

$100/mth would be the *high* end, not an average, representing maybe 5-10%, not 25%. An average would be closer to $50/mth, if that.

Whatever, it's still a ton of money that they can divy up as they see fit.

Even then, in perspective, your figure is less than a quarter of the $640,000 a month in Amway revenue generated (excl retail markup) in the average Diamond business (source Woodward et.al vs Quixtar)

Ah yes, but with the amway plan they don't control where the cash goes.

This is one area you're getting things very wrong, at least with how it works in our organisation. For a $7 CD, the *total* payout to all Platinums and above is $2.20 (over 20,000CDs a month). A very large Diamond (Crown Ambassador most likely) may thus earn from $0.00 (for a purchase in a large downline) to $2.20 (for a purchase within their own personal group).

$2.20 is not remotely a "lions share" of $7.00.

Please account for *ALL* of the money, not just the portion that you claim is sent out in bonuses. The last bonus chart you posted was missing most of the money.

I'm also curious as to where you think the money comes from to employ over 300 staff in 27 offices around the globe, since you think manufacturing costs and volume rebates are the only expenses.

Another way to ask this same question is how they can afford all of this if the tools money is so small? In fact a very small staff could outsource all of the required manufacturing of the materials. Production is mostly at functions that make a profit in addition to the cd sales.

Again, not correct with the N21 system. As a typical platinum you'll be getting $0.50 to $1.00/cd. As a typical Diamond, your net after downline platinums/emeralds etc are paid out would be $0.00 to $0.70/cd. On personal group sales a typical Diamond (assuming 6000-8000CDs sold a month) might make $1.40 on a $7.00 CD, which is 20%. On an Amway product they make 25%+.

Platinums are still suckers as they aren't realizing most of the downline value. The diamonds and above are the ones that get the majority of the money from their organizations.

Again, you don't have the full story as to where all of the money goes. If you do feel free to break down the cost of some of these products in detail. I would love to know the volume of CD's they sell as well as a breakdown of cost for each.

Bottom line there is a TON of money in tools for the diamonds. Way way more profitability than product and they control all of the money and pay out the bonuses on this tool money without accountability.

Again, if you have actual data feel free to present it. All you've done so far is make yourself look like on of the suckers who actually buys this garbage.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Again, not correct with the N21 system. As a typical platinum you'll be getting $0.50 to $1.00/cd. As a typical Diamond, your net after downline platinums/emeralds etc are paid out would be $0.00 to $0.70/cd. On personal group sales a typical Diamond (assuming 6000-8000CDs sold a month) might make $1.40 on a $7.00 CD, which is 20%. On an Amway product they make 25%+.

So 6000 CD's x $1.40 = $8400 a month. !!!NET!!!

That's $100800 per year. Yet above in this very thread you claim that diamonds make <$23000 a year from tools.

Please reconcile this apparent contradiction.

Also I call BS on your numbers. You aren't accounting for where all of the money paid for each CD goes. You also aren't accounting for ANY money from functions at all. In fact a diamond makes $500k+ a year off of tools unless they have a very oddly structured organization.

 

[icerat]

Please reconcile this apparent contradiction.

The $1.40 was a likely *maximum* for any individual CD, not the rate for all CDs, some of which the margin may be $0.00 after payouts to downline.

Also I call BS on your numbers. You aren't accounting for where all of the money paid for each CD goes. You also aren't accounting for ANY money from functions at all. In fact a diamond makes $500k+ a year off of tools unless they have a very oddly structured organization.

1. My rebate numbers of 100% accurate. The balance is operating expenses (and profit)for the supplying company.

2. No, we haven't discussed functions. A Diamond will typically net $0 to $10 on a weekend seminar ticket after payouts to downline Emeralds. They may make as much as $20 on personal group tickets.

 

[icerat]

Whatever, it's still a ton of money that they can divy up as they see fit.

No they don't, it's determined by N21. Again this isn't some basement operation like what you seem familiar with. It's a global multinational corporation.

Ah yes, but with the amway plan they don't control where the cash goes.

I'm not sure what you mean here? Diamonds using N21 have as much control over "where the cash goes" in tool rebates as they do with Amway.

Please account for *ALL* of the money, not just the portion that you claim is sent out in bonuses. The last bonus chart you posted was missing most of the money.

You're confusing two different issues. This discussion is about tool profit by platinums and above, similar to the Amway rebate schedule. Now you're wanting information about the tool supplying companies revenue, operating expenses and profit. I'm aware that in the little corner of the Amway world you have experience with they can be the same thing. In this case they are not.

Another way to ask this same question is how they can afford all of this if the tools money is so small?

Again you are conflating two different topics. Hundreds of thousands of customers a month makes for a large company.

In fact a very small staff could outsource all of the required manufacturing of the materials. Production is mostly at functions that make a profit in addition to the cd sales.

Ok, so you need at least 26 separate editors just to cope with the different languages. Admin staff for handling orders, accounts and enquiries, R&D staff for developing new technologies etc etc etc.

I was at a seminar on the weekend, I personally counted more than a dozen staff in attendance. That's for just one country.

Again, you don't have the full story as to where all of the money goes.

I've given you 100% accurate information on tool rebates to platinums and above.

Bottom line there is a TON of money in tools for the diamonds.

Bottom line is you don't appear to be able to comprehend we're talking a completely different type and scale of operation than what it seems you've had experience with.

Way way more profitability than product and they control all of the money and pay out the bonuses on this tool money without accountability.

I've already shown you this is not the case.

Again, if you have actual data feel free to present it.

That's a laugh. I've presented *actual data*, you simply reject it.

 

[NewtonTrino]

No they don't, it's determined by N21. Again this isn't some basement operation like what you seem familiar with. It's a global multinational corporation.

Whoop-de-doo. Forming a corporation is very simple.

Here's the real question. Who owns this corp and where do it's profits go?

If any of the upline have ownership in this corporation then your tool rebate schedule is just random paper as you have no idea how the profits from the tools are actually shared. Given that this organization IS owned by the people at the top of the pyramid your entire screed here is nonsense.

I'm not sure what you mean here? Diamonds using N21 have as much control over "where the cash goes" in tool rebates as they do with Amway.

They control the distribution of profits (they being which upline own the corp). Maybe all of the money goes into Jim Dornan's pocket? More likely he pays out bonuses to his big diamonds, the ones who have enough leverage to demand a large portion of the profits from their organization. It's actually a beautiful system because it hides most of the tools profit yet still gives a veneer of legitamacy for people like yourself to cling to. These guys aren't dumb.

You're confusing two different issues. This discussion is about tool profit by platinums and above, similar to the Amway rebate schedule. Now you're wanting information about the tool supplying companies revenue, operating expenses and profit. I'm aware that in the little corner of the Amway world you have experience with they can be the same thing. In this case they are not.

You are creating two seperate issues when there is only one. The profits are being obfuscated.

Again you are conflating two different topics. Hundreds of thousands of customers a month makes for a large company.

And for a lot of profit when you are dealing with things that have margins this large.

Ok, so you need at least 26 separate editors just to cope with the different languages. Admin staff for handling orders, accounts and enquiries, R&D staff for developing new technologies etc etc etc.

*chortle*. You are seriously deluded. I'm in the media business and our products are released all over the world in many languages including chinese, korean, efigs, russian etc. There are plenty of places to outsource translations and they are fairly inexpensive. Do they do full translation of all audio recordings? Or just subtitles?

Bottom line, I know the media business and it's a very cheap business to run.

I was at a seminar on the weekend, I personally counted more than a dozen staff in attendance. That's for just one country.

Yay. Incidentally how many people attended and what was the cost?

I've given you 100% accurate information on tool rebates to platinums and above.

I don't disbelieve that you believe this but I think you're just putting up a mental block. Who gets the profit from the N21 tools business? Obfuscation is a beautiful thing isn't it?

Bottom line is you don't appear to be able to comprehend we're talking a completely different type and scale of operation than what it seems you've had experience with.

Gimme a break. Seriously. Do you think we were all born yesterday? N21 has got to be making money hand over first. If you don't believe that the wealth is being spread amongst the kingpins of N21 you are simply living in la-la land.

I've already shown you this is not the case.

You've shown zero in the way of verifiable information.

That's a laugh. I've presented *actual data*, you simply reject it.

Again, where does the money go from all of these sales? A rebate schedule that only pays out a portion of the money doesn't answer the question of where *all* of the money goes. Using N21 as a catch-all and claiming they have expenses high enough to eat all of the money is a disgusting lie. Feel free to post from financial statements from this corp. Oops, they aren't available. You should feel bad about this but you won't due to the copious amounts of brainwashing garbage you've listened to.

So please, do fill is in on who own N21 and where any of it's profits go. Of course you aren't actually discussing any of this in good faith so you won't answer this question with anything by BS and spin.

You are just as bad as the kingpins and I hope someday you can escape this cult and apologize to all of the people who have screwed up their lives being involved with this dangerous business cult.