Miracle of the Shroud IV - The Phantom Image

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Jabba has repeatedly claimed that his sig in Latin, and AFAICT, has never retracted that claim.

I'm quite conversant in Latin and fluent in Italian. This
"Tra gli argomenti, colui che ricorre alla meno sarcasmo dovrebbe essere selezionata."
is unquestionably Italian. And I was too hasty earlier -- it is grammatically malformed, now that I read it more closely (al meno, not alla meno). "Among the arguments, that which resorts to the least sarcasm should be selected." Or less pretentiously, Si conviene scegliere l'argomento che mostra il meno sarcasmo. Yeah, if he can't even admit a simple error like which language he's butchering, then there is no reason to expect "effective debate."

The operative point contra his razor, of course, being that if one has spent four years "laying a foundation," one is not perpetually entitled to the utmost deference merely for the ability to brandish the trowel. Some sort of progress is expected. Replaying the same arguments day after day, week after week, in total refraction of rebuttals is simply rude and condescending, no matter how politely those resets may be phrased. When one's goal is evidently to portray one's critics as irrational hotheads, driving them to exasperation with kindly-worded evasion is not unexpected.
 
If someone so patently refuses to correct spelling, grammar and even language origin issues, might one reasonably conclude that person is game-playing here? How more hints would one need before concluding so?

I don't know that that conclusion is inescapable; I think you can say it demonstrates a lack of interest in facts, an unwillingness to do research and a reluctance to accept correction.
 
If someone so patently refuses to correct spelling, grammar and even language origin issues, might one reasonably conclude that person is game-playing here? How more hints would one need before concluding so?

One could say it's a trivial matter. One could say it has nothing to do with the age of the Turin cloth. But on the other hand one could say the sorts of things we've said.

The sentiment it's trying to express is that Jabba reserves the right to use "sarcasm" as an excuse not to pay attention to certain posters. That becomes relevant when you see how many posts Jabba has ignored. Ignoring posts until they fall off the end of people's memory is an integral part of the fringe-reset approach. Critics address his claims quickly and correctly at the time, but then a month later when they try to remind him of that during a reset, he can say, "Oh gee, I seem to have forgotten where you said that. Would you mind going back through the past 500 posts and bringing it to my attention again? I promise I'll answer it this time."

The critic's dilemma is whether to keep dangling from the fringe claimant's puppet-strings, or to stand firm and refuse. The latter, of course, provides an ongoing excuse: "Well, if you're not going to give me a reference to it, then I'm not obliged to deal with it." But I've found over the years that the excuse rings hollow in the long term, and that standing firm and requiring the interlocutor to maintain footing in the argument is best. I need no more justification for it than Jabba's "razor" -- "I reserve the right to ignore whomever I wish." Whether sarcasm or lack of qualification, I have a notebook full of the typical reasons fringe claimants give as a pretense for avoiding their critics.

Where it becomes relevant is our understanding of why it takes four years (tens of thousands of posts) just to start the debate with one person. We have to cast the arguments in a light that explains that rather odd circumstance. We have to explain why critics putting forward the right answers and asking for the right production of evidence results in nothing more substantial than an air of befuddlement from Jabba. (Yes, faux befuddlement is one of the items in my notebook.)

We have to explain the non-concessional concessions. We have to explain the resets. And yes, we have to explain his refusal to correct the pidgen Italian-trying-to-be-Latin -- I promise I'm getting there.

Sindonism is real science, we're told. It has real scientists doing real work. Shroud scholars write articles, hold conferences. Well, the truth is, real science hasn't done that since the 1990s or so, the few who ever did. See, 9/11 conspiracy theorists write articles and hold conferences. So do UFO enthusiasts and homeopaths. A common thread running through the fringe is the phenomenon of setting up a parallel structure that mimcs science. Real science lost interest in the shroud after the radiocarbon dating confirmed its age. What's left is the pseudoscientific framework of lingerers-on.

In some cases it's about justifying faith. Certain devout catholics want to see the cloth vindicated, and like a fraction of adherents to any religion, they believe it can be done with science. But as we've seen, nothing is as feeble as trying to prove one's religion logically or scientifically. In other cases it's pure intellectual pride. Religion aside, the cloth poses an archaeological question. And since science left the building 30 years ago, a host of marginally or wrongly qualified folk can rush in and play at science. With a raft of pre-radiocarbon findings to pick through, and lurid tales of misconduct in the carbon dating, they can dress up their layman's nit-picking in the discarded lab coats.

It's ego-reinforcement, of course. The basic motive behind all human activity is the desire to be great. Greatness is various defined from person to person, and in different circumstances. In America's jails, people incarcerated for offenses they wouldn't dare mention in a job interview nevertheless vie for greatness in that community: "I'm the biggest drug dealer in the county," etc.

Hugh wants to be the Scholar of the Shroud. Aspiring to scholarship is not a bad thing, but doing it his way is. Pseudoscience is the shortcut to the appearance of erudition. Jabba wants to be the Internet Crusader of the Miraculous. He wants to put those pesky skeptics in their place, and haggling over the authenticity of the cloth is the way he thinks he can do that best. It's a symbiotic relationship. The Jabbas of the world cite the various Shroud authors, which strokes their ego. Jabba believes those charlatans can feed him enough illusory science to win his debates.

But sooner or later these artificial pseudo-intellectual constructs run up against real life. Hugh gets caught making stuff up. Jabba gets confronted with facts he can't address or accommodate. When the battle on the motte goes badly, they retreat to the bailey. Jabba's bailey is his "map," where he gets to replay the debate within the solid stone walls of his own imagination. Requests from those quoted to correct or remove the quotes go unheeded because that would be the mottish rabble outside the gates knocking for admittance. Some of those people pounding on the bailey are telling him he can't speak either Latin or Italian. But within the bailey he can. Correcting the quote would mean the bailey isn't the fortress of competence he has constructed it to be.

So we see Jabba and Hugh peeking into the forum, peering from the arrow-slits in the bailey waiting for the rabble to disperse again so they can ride out onto the motte in their cardboard armour and cobbled-up mottoes to challenge the intellectual peasants to a fight.

Our motto should be, Inter argumenta, eligo verissimo. A concerted effort to hold Jabba accountable for offering a sincere argument is at hand.
 
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I think we can all agree that carbon dating is not 100% perfect. BANG RESET!!!111!
 
One could say it's a trivial matter. One could say it has nothing to do with the age of the Turin cloth. But on the other hand one could say the sorts of things we've said.

The sentiment it's trying to express is that Jabba reserves the right to use "sarcasm" as an excuse not to pay attention to certain posters. That becomes relevant when you see how many posts Jabba has ignored. Ignoring posts until they fall off the end of people's memory is an integral part of the fringe-reset approach. Critics address his claims quickly and correctly at the time, but then a month later when they try to remind him of that during a reset, he can say, "Oh gee, I seem to have forgotten where you said that. Would you mind going back through the past 500 posts and bringing it to my attention again? I promise I'll answer it this time."

The critic's dilemma is whether to keep dangling from the fringe claimant's puppet-strings, or to stand firm and refuse. The latter, of course, provides an ongoing excuse: "Well, if you're not going to give me a reference to it, then I'm not obliged to deal with it." But I've found over the years that the excuse rings hollow in the long term, and that standing firm and requiring the interlocutor to maintain footing in the argument is best. I need no more justification for it than Jabba's "razor" -- "I reserve the right to ignore whomever I wish." Whether sarcasm or lack of qualification, I have a notebook full of the typical reasons fringe claimants give as a pretense for avoiding their critics.

Where it becomes relevant is our understanding of why it takes four years (tens of thousands of posts) just to start the debate with one person. We have to cast the arguments in a light that explains that rather odd circumstance. We have to explain why critics putting forward the right answers and asking for the right production of evidence results in nothing more substantial than an air of befuddlement from Jabba. (Yes, faux befuddlement is one of the items in my notebook.)

We have to explain the non-concessional concessions. We have to explain the resets. And yes, we have to explain his refusal to correct the pidgen Italian-trying-to-be-Latin -- I promise I'm getting there.

Sindonism is real science, we're told. It has real scientists doing real work. Shroud scholars write articles, hold conferences. Well, the truth is, real science hasn't done that since the 1990s or so, the few who ever did. See, 9/11 conspiracy theorists write articles and hold conferences. So do UFO enthusiasts and homeopaths. A common thread running through the fringe is the phenomenon of setting up a parallel structure that mimcs science. Real science lost interest in the shroud after the radiocarbon dating confirmed its age. What's left is the pseudoscientific framework of lingerers-on.

In some cases it's about justifying faith. Certain devout catholics want to see the cloth vindicated, and like a fraction of adherents to any religion, they believe it can be done with science. But as we've seen, nothing is as feeble as trying to prove one's religion logically or scientifically. In other cases it's pure intellectual pride. Religion aside, the cloth poses an archaeological question. And since science left the building 30 years ago, a host of marginally or wrongly qualified folk can rush in and play at science. With a raft of pre-radiocarbon findings to pick through, and lurid tales of misconduct in the carbon dating, they can dress up their layman's nit-picking in the discarded lab coats.

It's ego-reinforcement, of course. The basic motive behind all human activity is the desire to be great. Greatness is various defined from person to person, and in different circumstances. In America's jails, people incarcerated for offenses they wouldn't dare mention in a job interview nevertheless vie for greatness in that community: "I'm the biggest drug dealer in the county," etc.

Hugh wants to be the Scholar of the Shroud. Aspiring to scholarship is not a bad thing, but doing it his way is. Pseudoscience is the shortcut to the appearance of erudition. Jabba wants to be the Internet Crusader of the Miraculous. He wants to put those pesky skeptics in their place, and haggling over the authenticity of the cloth is the way he thinks he can do that best. It's a symbiotic relationship. The Jabbas of the world cite the various Shroud authors, which strokes their ego. Jabba believes those charlatans can feed him enough illusory science to win his debates.

But sooner or later these artificial pseudo-intellectual constructs run up against real life. Hugh gets caught making stuff up. Jabba gets confronted with facts he can't address or accommodate. When the battle on the motte goes badly, they retreat to the bailey. Jabba's bailey is his "map," where he gets to replay the debate within the solid stone walls of his own imagination. Requests from those quoted to correct or remove the quotes go unheeded because that would be the mottish rabble outside the gates knocking for admittance. Some of those people pounding on the bailey are telling him he can't speak either Latin or Italian. But within the bailey he can. Correcting the quote would mean the bailey isn't the fortress of competence he has constructed it to be.

So we see Jabba and Hugh peeking into the forum, peering from the arrow-slits in the bailey waiting for the rabble to disperse again so they can ride out onto the motte in their cardboard armour and cobbled-up mottoes to challenge the intellectual peasants to a fight.

Our motto should be, Inter argumenta, eligo verissimo. A concerted effort to hold Jabba accountable for offering a sincere argument is at hand.

Excellent write-up! I used to wonder whether Jabba was intellectually or ethically not up to the challenge (or both), but came to realise the game was to never reach a conclusion...
 
- Some evidence for authenticity based upon the limestone found on the shroud:


- http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/stlschneiderpaper.pdf
Against all Christian art tradition super forger created an image with a helmet of thorns, nails through the wrists, and a myriad of scourge marks matching a Roman instrument unused for almost a thousand years. Super forger put serum rings around the blood stains using real blood. He added burn holes to match a 12th century Hungarian manuscript. He added rare limestone from Jerusalem on the nose, knee, and heel. Super forger stitched a side strip onto the cloth with a sewing technique from the 1st century. He also added discolorations to the cloth representing adevice used to display the shroud over a hundred years before in Constantinople. Super forger is just super.

In 1978 the STURP scientists detected dirt on the nose, knee, and heel using reflectance spectrometry. Subsequently it was classified as a form of travertine aragonite, a rare limestone identical to that found in Jerusalem. Dr Ricardo Levi-Setti (University of Chicago) compared shroud sample with samples collected in Jerusalem using a high resolution scanning ion microprobe and observed an excellent match.
(Accepting that aragonite was found on the shroud, and that it was at the locations on the shroud claimed, if it was from France (as suggested by skeptics), its presence on the shroud – and locations on the shroud – are either major signs of a “super forger,” or major signs of incredible coincidence).

http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/sn029Jun85.pdf
(2) Calcium is found covering the Shroud with predominance on the back, non-image side of the cloth. It was that side which would have been on the bench or ledge in the tomb (see the reconstruction of Christ's tomb). Calcium from the area of the "bloody foot" was compared to calcium (limestone) samples taken in Jerusalem near the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the traditional site for the tomb of Christ, both samples matched.



http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/villarrealvtxt.pdf
One of the first tests performed directly on the Shroud by the STURP team during the 1978 study of the Shroud was Reflective Spectroscopy conducted by Roger and Marty Gilbert. They seemed to be having analytical difficulties when the spectra they were obtaining changed when they reached the area of the heel. The problem seemed to resolve itself only to reappear when they reached the knee area where they obtained spectra different from the rest of the cloth except for the problem area of the heel. Again the problem resolved itself only to reappear eventually at the nose.

They called on the Sam Pellicori, an Optical Spectroscopist, who via a vertical mounted sliding macroscope looked at the heel area and declared the reason for the “abnormal” readings was “dirt.” In retrospect, Eric Jumper who was the lead person for that experiment concluded that it was appropriate that the man on the Shroud would have dirt on selected parts of his body, especially the heel, and particularly if he had fallen.

In 1982, Ray Rogers sent a sticky tape microscope slide with a speck of an undetermined composition from the heel area to Dr. Joseph Kohlbeck, an Optical Crystallographer at the Hercules Aerospace Center in Utah for analysis to determine if there was anything interesting in the slide. Dr. Kolbeck identified the dark speck as Travertine Aragonite, a rare form of calcite. Dr. Kohlbeck completed his analysis and his results were received with great interest. He eventually passed the slide with the speck to Dr. Ricardo Levi-Setti, Scientist at the Enrico Fermi Institute at the University of Chicago. His analysis also showed that the speck was Aragonite. I called both scientists on March 11, 2012 to verify the results. Cesar Barta of Spain now has the speck.

As a follow-up to this, limestone samples were taken from at least 9 tombs throughout the Jerusalem area but only a separate sample taken from near the Damascus Gate near Golgotha contained Aragonite.

The fact that Aragonite, a rare form of calcite, was the identified species of limestone on the foot of the man on the Shroud and was also found at on the ground at Golgotha near the Damascus Gate points to a connection between the man of the Shroud and the Biblical Jesus.



- I might be back with more info re limestone, but for now, I'm going back to the blood issue.

Why when you've already admitted you have no evidence that blood on the cloth supports authenticity?
 
Blood/What difference does it make?

- Back to blood and the logic of consilience and Bayesian statistics -- one, or two, steps at a time.
- I claim that
1) If we could show that the stains on the shroud were, in fact, blood, we would have a little bit of evidence that the shroud is authentic. That would be true because the likelihood of the stains being blood is greater if the shroud is authentic than if the shroud is not authentic.
 
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- Back to blood and the logic of consilience and Bayesian statistics -- one, or two, steps at a time.
- I claim that
1) If we could show that the stains on the shroud were, in fact, blood, we would have a little bit of evidence that the shroud is authentic. That would be true because the likelihood of the stains being blood is greater if the shroud is authentic than if the shroud is not authentic.


Go away and stop wasting my pixels.
You are still boring.
 
Jabba, please clarify whether you have little or no direct evidence for authenticity?

- Back to blood and the logic of consilience and Bayesian statistics -- one, or two, steps at a time.
- I claim that
1) If we could show that the stains on the shroud were, in fact, blood, we would have a little bit of evidence that the shroud is authentic. That would be true because the likelihood of the stains being blood is greater if the shroud is authentic than if the shroud is not authentic.

What's changed since the last time you were told why that is nonsense?
 
- Back to blood and the logic of consilience and Bayesian statistics -- one, or two, steps at a time.
- I claim that
1) If we could show that the stains on the shroud were, in fact, blood, we would have a little bit of evidence that the shroud is authentic. That would be true because the likelihood of the stains being blood is greater if the shroud is authentic than if the shroud is not authentic.

My Dear Mr. Savage:

This is, simply, not the case. Even if, arguendo (and only arguendo), you were to demonstrate that the representations of "blood" on the CIQ were, in fact, rendered in actual blood, you would still have to explain why you believe blood is so rare that its presence would indicate that the CIQ is ~2000 years old.

First, of course, you would need to deal with the problem of the color of the "blood", the anomalous chemical composition of the "blood" (about which you surrendered, just recently), and the absurdly unrealistic representations of the "blood". Have you any intent of doing that?

I remain sanguinely yours, &ct.
 
Blood/What difference does it make?

- Back to blood and the logic of consilience and Bayesian statistics -- one, or two, steps at a time.
- I claim that
1) If we could show that the stains on the shroud were, in fact, blood, we would have a little bit of evidence that the shroud is authentic. That would be true because the likelihood of the stains being blood is greater if the shroud is authentic than if the shroud is not authentic.

My Dear Mr. Savage:
This is, simply, not the case. Even if, arguendo (and only arguendo), you were to demonstrate that the representations of "blood" on the CIQ were, in fact, rendered in actual blood, you would still have to explain why you believe blood is so rare that its presence would indicate that the CIQ is ~2000 years old...
Slowvehicle,
- It isn't the rarity of blood that makes actual bloodstains on the shroud be evidence for authenticity. It's that actual blood stains would be more likely on an authentic shroud than they would be on an inauthentic shroud.
 
Slowvehicle,
- It isn't the rarity of blood that makes actual bloodstains on the shroud be evidence for authenticity. It's that actual blood stains would be more likely on an authentic shroud than they would be on an inauthentic shroud.

But a cloth that's only 700 years old can't be an authentic shroud.
 
- Back to blood and the logic of consilience and Bayesian statistics -- one, or two, steps at a time.
- I claim that
1) If we could show that the stains on the shroud were, in fact, blood, we would have a little bit of evidence that the shroud is authentic. That would be true because the likelihood of the stains being blood is greater if the shroud is authentic than if the shroud is not authentic.

No it wouldn't and you know why: There have been countless sources of blood in the last 700 years.
 
Slowvehicle,
- It isn't the rarity of blood that makes actual bloodstains on the shroud be evidence for authenticity. It's that actual blood stains would be more likely on an authentic shroud than they would be on an inauthentic shroud.

If you were trying to make a convincing shroud, would you use blood on it?
 
Slowvehicle,
- It isn't the rarity of blood that makes actual bloodstains on the shroud be evidence for authenticity. It's that actual blood stains would be more likely on an authentic shroud than they would be on an inauthentic shroud.

My Dear Mr. Savage:

Why, in your opinion, would it be more likely to find actual blood on a cloth that was supposedly "wrapped" around a corpse, than upon a cloth intended to artistically represent a crucified body?

Why would the presence of "blood" that is not represented as flowing in the way actual blood flows, or as being absorbed by cloth and hair as actual blood is, make the 700-year-old CIQ "more likely" to be "authentic"?

I remain patiently yours, &ct.
 
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