Miracle of the Shroud IV - The Phantom Image

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I'm a little perplexed by the compound term "Travertine Aragonite", as search results on that phrase only return Shroud websites.... hmmmmm... Could it be that the term is unique to Shroud sites because they're referencing an invalid term from a specific paper?

Short answer: yes

Travertine is a variety of limestone, extremely common throughout Italy in particular.

Aragonite refers a naturally occurring mineral of calcium carbonate and is the main mineral of shells and corals, but is also found in caves and as sands comprised of decayed/broken shells.

Neither are rare or unusual.

I'm calling BUSTED.
 
I'm a little perplexed by the compound term "Travertine Aragonite", as search results on that phrase only return Shroud websites.... hmmmmm... Could it be that the term is unique to Shroud sites because they're referencing an invalid term from a specific paper?

Short answer: yes

Travertine is a variety of limestone, extremely common throughout Italy in particular.

Aragonite refers a naturally occurring mineral of calcium carbonate and is the main mineral of shells and corals, but is also found in caves and as sands comprised of decayed/broken shells.

Neither are rare or unusual.

I'm calling BUSTED.
It is much the same as referring to a rock being a "rock rock". It is redundant. It is also indicative of shroud proponents proclivity for obfuscation.
 
Travertine is a variety of limestone, extremely common throughout Italy in particular.

Aragonite refers a naturally occurring mineral of calcium carbonate...

It's all CaCO3. Travertine is calcium carbonate, the same as any other form of limestone, but is more visibly porous.

Neither are rare or unusual.

Both are extremely commonplace. As stated, in Italy travertine is used as curbstones and paving stones. Telling me that a piece of cloth that has resided in Italy since the 1500s must be from Jerusalem because of the CaCO3 is simply ludicrous. What makes travertine travertine is its appearance in rock form. What makes aragonite aragonite is its crystalline arrangement. The former is simply not applicable to dust accumulated on a cloth. It's like trying to say water is different if it melted from an ice sculpture than if you ran it out of the tap. The latter can apply to dust, but has absolutely no potential to differentiate Jerusalem from, say, Turin.

I'm calling BUSTED.

Clearly. It's pseudoscience dishonestly intended to bolster the faith of the faithful.
 
It's all CaCO3. Travertine is calcium carbonate, the same as any other form of limestone, but is more visibly porous.



Both are extremely commonplace. As stated, in Italy travertine is used as curbstones and paving stones. Telling me that a piece of cloth that has resided in Italy since the 1500s must be from Jerusalem because of the CaCO3 is simply ludicrous. What makes travertine travertine is its appearance in rock form. What makes aragonite aragonite is its crystalline arrangement. The former is simply not applicable to dust accumulated on a cloth. It's like trying to say water is different if it melted from an ice sculpture than if you ran it out of the tap. The latter can apply to dust, but has absolutely no potential to differentiate Jerusalem from, say, Turin.

Clearly. It's pseudoscience dishonestly intended to bolster the faith of the faithful.

Indeed - my geology gland was pulsating furiously at the liberties being taken with terminology in the referenced post. Queue special pleading for "Jerusalem Limestone", containing traces of uniquium in 3-2-1...
 
It's all CaCO3. Travertine is calcium carbonate, the same as any other form of limestone, but is more visibly porous.
Yet Jabba would have us believe in "special" dust.



Both are extremely commonplace. As stated, in Italy travertine is used as curbstones and paving stones. Telling me that a piece of cloth that has resided in Italy since the 1500s must be from Jerusalem because of the CaCO3 is simply ludicrous. What makes travertine travertine is its appearance in rock form. What makes aragonite aragonite is its crystalline arrangement. The former is simply not applicable to dust accumulated on a cloth. It's like trying to say water is different if it melted from an ice sculpture than if you ran it out of the tap. The latter can apply to dust, but has absolutely no potential to differentiate Jerusalem from, say, Turin.
As said earlier, aragonite is so named for the region in Spain called Aragon in which it would be difficult to avoid tripping over aragonite at every step. to suggest it to be "rare" is rather close to a flat out lie, though I hesitate to level that accusation.


Clearly. It's pseudoscience dishonestly intended to bolster the faith of the faithful.
Not sure on that. You or I or anyone can verify that aragonite is ubiquitous and a commonplace building material in rome for thousands of years. Once again we run smack up against the Jabbaverse of reality. Somehow, 36 hours in a cave is more significant than the 700 years that we have actual records for. Somehow, those do not matter.

And if, as I posted before, Jabba wishes to make such a claim, he must explain how exactly the CIQ was sequestered such that it was isolated from limestone for 2 frakkin thousand years while being stored in limestone buildings built from commonplace limestone which he claims on the basis of nothing is rare yet has been a commonplace building material for thousands of years.

It would appear that he has some evidential mountains to climb at the very least. And I am being kind.
 
It's all CaCO3. Travertine is calcium carbonate, the same as any other form of limestone, but is more visibly porous.

Both are extremely commonplace. As stated, in Italy travertine is used as curbstones and paving stones. Telling me that a piece of cloth that has resided in Italy since the 1500s must be from Jerusalem because of the CaCO3 is simply ludicrous. What makes travertine travertine is its appearance in rock form. What makes aragonite aragonite is its crystalline arrangement. The former is simply not applicable to dust accumulated on a cloth. It's like trying to say water is different if it melted from an ice sculpture than if you ran it out of the tap. The latter can apply to dust, but has absolutely no potential to differentiate Jerusalem from, say, Turin.

Clearly. It's pseudoscience dishonestly intended to bolster the faith of the faithful.

[fake cough]GESSO[/fake cough]
 
[T]o suggest it to be "rare" is rather close to a flat out lie, though I hesitate to level that accusation.

I will.

You or I or anyone can verify that aragonite is ubiquitous and a commonplace building material in rome for thousands of years. Once again we run smack up against the Jabbaverse of reality.

True that. Hugh told Jabba not to pay attention to the limestone claims because it can't prove the cloth came from Jerusalem. In flagrant disregard of that, Jabba not only said that it could but offered numerical probabilities that it could -- p = 0.95 that an authentic shroud would have limestone, but only p = 0.50 that a fake one would. No justification given for these numbers, only flagrant evasion.

While backpedaling away from his pseudo-statistical buffoonery, Jabba said he might have been taken in by pro-authenticity sources. And what does he do? He posts those questionable sources as evidence! Not only do we have his own wavering faith in those sources to contend with, we have their patent misrepresentations.

Whether artist's gesso or incidental contamination from the ubiquitous limestone building materials, his sources' rampant speculation and clear misrepresentation of the rarity of the material are pretty blatant.
 
Best of luck. Were I frank on this matter, I would likely buy a ban in short order.

True that. Hugh told Jabba not to pay attention to the limestone claims because it can't prove the cloth came from Jerusalem. In flagrant disregard of that, Jabba not only said that it could but offered numerical probabilities that it could -- p = 0.95 that an authentic shroud would have limestone, but only p = 0.50 that a fake one would. No justification given for these numbers, only flagrant evasion.
And hence why I posed the burden of proof questions which Jabba has assiduously ignored. Perhaps some repetition is in order.

If 36 hours of exposure is the sole source of limestone on the CIQ, then Jabba has the burden of proof to demonstrate that the CIQ has been isolated from limestone for the ensuing 2,000 years.

And the blood claim has the same burden. If there is blood on the CIQ (not yet even vaguely demonstrated) then Jabba has the burden of proof to demonstrate that no blood was available for the ensuing 2,000 years.

This is Jabba's self inflicted evidential Everest and it is notable that he avoids such questions like the plague.

Putting my cynical hat on, I begin to believe that the dearth of responses is simply another tactic.

While backpedaling away from his pseudo-statistical buffoonery, Jabba said he might have been taken in by pro-authenticity sources. And what does he do? He posts those questionable sources as evidence! Not only do we have his own wavering faith in those sources to contend with, we have their patent misrepresentations.
Consistent with the non-concession concession.

Whether artist's gesso or incidental contamination from the ubiquitous limestone building materials, his sources' rampant speculation and clear misrepresentation of the rarity of the material are pretty blatant.
And there is the oddity. Jabba will happily argue the point with you or I or anyone else on this thread but not the various crank citations. Those crank citations are gospel and may not be questioned.
 
I will.



True that. Hugh told Jabba not to pay attention to the limestone claims because it can't prove the cloth came from Jerusalem. In flagrant disregard of that, Jabba not only said that it could but offered numerical probabilities that it could -- p = 0.95 that an authentic shroud would have limestone, but only p = 0.50 that a fake one would. No justification given for these numbers, only flagrant evasion.

While backpedaling away from his pseudo-statistical buffoonery, Jabba said he might have been taken in by pro-authenticity sources. And what does he do? He posts those questionable sources as evidence! Not only do we have his own wavering faith in those sources to contend with, we have their patent misrepresentations.

Whether artist's gesso or incidental contamination from the ubiquitous limestone building materials, his sources' rampant speculation and clear misrepresentation of the rarity of the material are pretty blatant.

This bit is particularly telling:

http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/sn029Jun85.pdf
(2) Calcium is found covering the Shroud with predominance on the back, non-image side of the cloth. It was that side which would have been on the bench or ledge in the tomb (see the reconstruction of Christ's tomb). Calcium from the area of the "bloody foot" was compared to calcium (limestone) samples taken in Jerusalem near the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the traditional site for the tomb of Christ, both samples matched.

Note the claim that there is a "predominance" of "calcium" on the "non-image side of the cloth...which would have been on the bench or ledge in the tomb..."; and that this "calcium" was compared to "(limestone)" taken from a tourist site in Jerusalem and found to "match".

1. In reality, the "calcium" on the CIQ is CaCO3. Gesso is a preparation of chalk dust, limestone dust, or marble dust (all CaCo3); the claim that CaCO3 from one place can be found to be a "match" to CaCO3 from another is the claim that O2 from one place can be said to "match" O2 from another.

2. Notice also that the "source" of the "matching "(limestone)" is the "traditional" site of the "tomb"...which does not even pretend to take into account that the city of Jerusalem and its environs were razed to the ground. There is no reason at all to believe that the modern tourist site of the "Holy Sepulchre" can be taken to be the tomb in which the body of the HJ was said to be said to be laid after his crucifiction (and in which the resurrexion to the MJ is said to be said to have occurred); the site was "identified" by Empress Helena after a woman was "miraculously cured" by touching the "true cross", one of three "discovered" when digging up Hadrian's Wall.

3. Further, the side of the manifestly medieval linen upon which a "predominance" of "calcium" is claimed to be found is...yes, that's right...the side upon which the CIQ would have been in contact with any box it were kept in, or any table it were displayed upon, or any wall it were hung against. The "predominance" of "carbon" indicates that the CIQ was not stored, or displayed, face-down or face-in. Surprise.

And this is to be taken as evidence of "authenticity"...
 
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