Miracle of the Shroud IV - The Phantom Image

[Craig4]

Why are you asking Jabba questions? You KNOW he won't answer - he'll just use your post as a way to mention something else ... AGAIN. Leave him alone.

I'll keep my own counsel about what, and where I post.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Now we're talking! It's refreshing to discuss something serious for once.

About the non serious parts, though I don't feel like replying to that poster, the age "gradient" in that jabbalogic approach is most probably the order the subsamples were taken for testing. Say the original sample was cut into three and the dating resulted, from left to right or from top to bottom: A (1250 AD), B (1300 AD) and C (1350 AD), then, diddly-dee, gradient! The probability of this happening is one third. If someone wanted to check that out to show how predictable Jabba is, we could move onto testing Pavlov reflexes.

(Anyway, if needed, gradient could be samples in any order and the cause of it could be a grain of bug-dung or whatever needed to discredit the testing and holding on their faith because, you know, if that isn't the real shroud then Jebus didn't even existed . So much they are willing to sacrifice their faith to their ignorant stubbornness, these "believers")

Personally, I think it must be emphasized, ans re-emphasized, that Rogers claimed that his "Vanillin Degradation" test showed that the tested corner was "different" from the rest of the CIQ, apparently without ever testing the rest of the CIQ.

Strongly resembles "Schroedinger's Iron(III) oxide", no?

 

[aleCcowaN]

Strongly resembles "Schroedinger's Iron(III) oxide", no?

Certainly it all falls under the label "when science degenerates into cloak-and-dagger tales to serve group interests". Certainly inveterate smokers would prefer tobacco to be health-neutral; nasty polluters, greenhouse gases to by climate-neutral; and irrational Cathaholics, the shroud to be authentic. In lukewarm defence of the Jabbas of the world, they are doing little social harm other than promoting ignorance in a narrow scale, when compared with other groups. For instance, I never heard Jabba telling that I should go in front on the shroud and kneel in adoration.

 

[John Jones]

Personally, I think it must be emphasized, ans re-emphasized, that Rogers claimed that his "Vanillin Degradation" test showed that the tested corner was "different" from the rest of the CIQ, apparently without ever testing the rest of the CIQ.

Strongly resembles "Schroedinger's Iron(III) oxide", no?

Too bad we can't ask Rogers.

Say, are their any necromancers here? If so, can you put us in touch with Ray Rogers to answer some vanillin questions?

 

[aleCcowaN]

A little question. Has anyone ever tested other flax fibre fabrics from 1200 to 1500 and find vanillin, if any, in the proportions Rogers claim to be correct?

Because there are many rags out there that can be tested. How do I know that Rogers didn't test a modern or foreign variety of flax to set a wrong standard? How do I know that Rogers even tested any flax?

 

[Pixel42]

Say, are their any necromancers here? If so, can you put us in touch with Ray Rogers to answer some vanillin questions?

If there were any necromancers here they could put us in touch with Jesus and he could confirm it wasn't his shroud. I think that might be the only thing that would terminate this thread.

 

[Aepervius]

A little question. Has anyone ever tested other flax fibre fabrics from 1200 to 1500 and find vanillin, if any, in the proportions Rogers claim to be correct?

Because there are many rags out there that can be tested. How do I know that Rogers didn't test a modern or foreign variety of flax to set a wrong standard? How do I know that Rogers even tested any flax?

Good luck with that.

If you read my post upthread (I am too lazy to quote) I found the article about vanillin presence in prehistoric plant fiber sample, and the reason for the presence (has to do with a certain pH stopping vanillin decomposition).

but to do that I had to slog through the FSM knows how many shroudy web page about vanillin test.

so yeah, good luck i am nto doing it a second time .

ETA: You might be interested into that one :
https://shroudofturinwithoutalltheh...osiewicz-not-a-co-author-and-wheres-the-data/

It is only a critic of the vanillin test though

ETA:ETA: the read is very itnerresting might have been linked already, aprticularly the aprt where it mention that the test used actually detect other stuff.

 

[aleCcowaN]

Good luck with that.

If you read my post upthread (I am too lazy to quote) I found the article about vanillin presence in prehistoric plant fiber sample, and the reason for the presence (has to do with a certain pH stopping vanillin decomposition).

but to do that I had to slog through the FSM knows how many shroudy web page about vanillin test.

so yeah, good luck i am nto doing it a second time .

ETA: You might be interested into that one :
https://shroudofturinwithoutalltheh...osiewicz-not-a-co-author-and-wheres-the-data/

It is only a critic of the vanillin test though

ETA:ETA: the read is very itnerresting might have been linked already, aprticularly the aprt where it mention that the test used actually detect other stuff.

Thanks for that!

 

[Slowvehicle]

A little question. Has anyone ever tested other flax fibre fabrics from 1200 to 1500 and find vanillin, if any, in the proportions Rogers claim to be correct?

Because there are many rags out there that can be tested. How do I know that Rogers didn't test a modern or foreign variety of flax to set a wrong standard? How do I know that Rogers even tested any flax?

Above and beyond that, honestly, there is no reason to believe that the threads Rogers 'tested" are, in fact, threads from the CIQ...

 

[Aepervius]

S. Another thought struck me a few minutes ago of another factor, other than age, that could account for loss of colour with phloroglucinol in the Wiesner test. According to a literature reference I can supply, phloroglucinol reacts with the free aldehyde group of coniferyaldehyde (forming an oddball pinkish cationic species).

So anything that blocks that aldehyde will probably prevent the reaction. A classic way of blocking aldehyde groups is to form addition products with bisulphites (essentially dissolved sulphur dioxide gas). What’s more the removal of lignin from wood in papermaking relies on that same reaction between SO2/HSO3- and free aldehyde functions.

I’m sure I need hardly tell you that there is more than one way in which SO2 etc could have come into contact with the Shroud in its early history. It could have been used perhaps to bleach yarn (it’s the classic method for bleaching straw hats with their high lignin content, though I’m less certain about its effects on linen). Alternatively, someone may have burned sulphur candles in the vicinity of the Shroud – known from antiquity as a means par excellence for fumigation to kill insects and their larvae etc.

As I also pointed out upthread many variety of factors could have completely stopped the clock. The author here adds one.

IMHO the vanillin test is completely broken.

 

[jond]

If there were any necromancers here they could put us in touch with Jesus and he could confirm it wasn't his shroud. I think that might be the only thing that would terminate this thread.

Jabba could, of course, finally acknowledge that he has nothing in the way of evidence and put it all to rest.

 

[aleCcowaN]

I suppose Jabba has discussed this paper here:

http://www.west.net/~shroud/pdfs/stlschneiderpaper.pdf

Cloak-and-dagger novel.

 

[John Jones]

A little question. Has anyone ever tested other flax fibre fabrics from 1200 to 1500 and find vanillin, if any, in the proportions Rogers claim to be correct?

Because there are many rags out there that can be tested. How do I know that Rogers didn't test a modern or foreign variety of flax to set a wrong standard? How do I know that Rogers even tested any flax?

As far as I have been able to tell, Rogers is the only person to ever publish numbers from his vanillin degradation.

 

[John Jones]

If there were any necromancers here they could put us in touch with Jesus and he could confirm it wasn't his shroud. I think that might be the only thing that would terminate this thread.

Good point.

 

[Belz...]

Cloak- Shroud-and-dagger novel.

Fixed.

 

[aleCcowaN]

I can't find any other document about vanillin and dating that is not shroud-oriented. It looks to me this is a tailored experiment or an statistical artefact, like the original study linking Roundup with cancer. Probably not even any of both, but a forgery.

 

[Slowvehicle]

I can't find any other document about vanillin and dating that is not shroud-oriented. It looks to me this is a tailored experiment or an statistical artefact, like the original study linking Roundup with cancer. Probably not even any of both, but a forgery.

Of course it is a tailored, ex post facto, bit of special pleading. The "Vanillin Degradation Protocol" was not developed until after the ¹⁴C dating established the "wrong" date...

 

[theprestige]

Jabba could, of course, finally acknowledge that he has nothing in the way of evidence and put it all to rest.

On the few occasions where he has actually put forward a specific piece of evidence in support of a specific claim, the evidence has been shown to be lacking and he has acknowledged that.

The frustrating part is that he's got an extensive parade of "evidence", and getting him to put forward each one is a long and laborious process. I've only seen it happen twice so far.

 

[aleCcowaN]

Of course it is a tailored, ex post facto, bit of special pleading. The "Vanillin Degradation Protocol" was not developed until after the ¹⁴C dating established the "wrong" date...

That is not bad per se. If valid, it would be one of few occasions religion fostered the advance of science. But I'm worried it's just another trickery as it's pretty easy to take a few threads from flax, silk and wool fabrics of several ages we have exact dates for and see the protocol at work. It seems 27 years have passed and nobody has taken advantage of this genial advance. Why is that, me wonders. To avoid useless gutting of historic fabrics, maybe?

 

[Slowvehicle]

That is not bad per se. If valid, it would be one of few occasions religion fostered the advance of science. But I'm worried it's just another trickery as it's pretty easy to take a few threads from flax, silk and wool fabrics of several ages we have exact dates for and see the protocol at work. It seems 27 years have passed and nobody has taken advantage of this genial advance. Why is that, me wonders. To avoid useless gutting of historic fabrics, maybe?

The reason the VDP is not used is because it does not work. Especially at the qualitative (not quantitative) level at which Rogers used it.