Miracle of the Shroud IV - The Phantom Image

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If anything the presence of blood on the cloth would argue against authenticity as a real shroud would be highly unlikely to have any (as the body would be washed before burial), but it's the sort of thing a faker might decide to add thinking it would make it seem more authentic to people who don't stop to think about it for more than 5 seconds.
 
- It tilts the scale more towards authenticity than the scale was tilted before.
- Also, if it can be shown that the stains are not blood, I'll give up the ghost.

My Dear Mr. Savage:

Why is it that you are attempting to reverse the burden of proof (again)?

You have made the claim that the stains on the CIQ are blood. Isn't it up to you to support your claim?

(BTW: To forestall complaints about using the search engine, see here. Dealing with these would be a dandy place to start...)

As ever, I remain,

Patiently yours, &ct.
 
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- It tilts the scale more towards authenticity than the scale was tilted before.

The scale is not tilted toward authenticity.

As has been pointed out many times, it doesn't matter how much you take out of the medieval side, if you don't have anything in the authentic side, it will never tilt that way.

So before you can talk about tilting more toward authenticity, you have to have something in the authentic side in the first place, and you've never provided that.
 
- Would you accept that it tilts more in the direction of authenticity than it did before?

No.

- It tilts the scale more towards authenticity than the scale was tilted before.
- Also, if it can be shown that the stains are not blood, I'll give up the ghost.

You're jumping around again. Remember, Effective Debate, one step at a time. You were the one in your post that said you would show the shroud is 2000 years old and that you would start by addressing the blood. So a question was asked. Please answer the question. How does the presence of blood affect the date of the shroud?
 
Blood/What difference does it make?

- Would you accept that it tilts more in the direction of authenticity than it did before?

- Keep in mind that I'm not claiming that adding acceptance that the stains are in fact blood to the scale would make the scale favor authenticity -- I'm just claiming that adding such acceptance would affect the tilt of the scale, and the tilt would be more towards authenticity than it had been before the addition. Does that help?
 
- Keep in mind that I'm not claiming that adding acceptance that the stains are in fact blood to the scale would make the scale favor authenticity -- I'm just claiming that adding such acceptance would affect the tilt of the scale, and the tilt would be more towards authenticity than it had been before the addition. Does that help?

My Dear Mr. Savage:

Why not demonstrate that the stains are, in fact, blood, before you start counting your tilting chickens?

I remain,

Helpfully yours &ct.
 
- Keep in mind that I'm not claiming that adding acceptance that the stains are in fact blood to the scale would make the scale favor authenticity -- I'm just claiming that adding such acceptance would affect the tilt of the scale, and the tilt would be more towards authenticity than it had been before the addition. Does that help?

Not unless you establish that the blood is two thousand years old.
 
- Keep in mind that I'm not claiming that adding acceptance that the stains are in fact blood to the scale would make the scale favor authenticity -- I'm just claiming that adding such acceptance would affect the tilt of the scale, and the tilt would be more towards authenticity than it had been before the addition. Does that help?

No, it doesn't.

Would you please answer the question asked of you?
 
I'm just claiming that adding such acceptance would affect the tilt of the scale, and the tilt would be more towards authenticity than it had been before the addition. Does that help?

No, because you're simply restating the same fallacy over and over again using different words. You simply don't understand how categorical logic works, nor what it means to prove something.

Pause to consider what "authentic" means in the case of the cloth. "Authentic" means 2,000 years old. If you claim it is authentic, you must prove it's 2,000 years old. It doesn't matter what you can prove it isn't. Proving authenticity means proving what it is -- specifically that it is 2,000 years old.

There is another age on the table, and that's the 700-year age established by radiocarbon dating and other factors. You seem to have gotten it into your head that solely by undermining one specific age (700 years), you accumulate proof for some other specific age (2,000 years). That's simply not how proof works.

The scale analogy is suitable only when there are exactly two possible outcomes. That's the only way you can say that the question, in the language of the scale, "tilts" one way or the other when evidence is rebutted. But the two possible outcomes here are not "700 years old" and "2,000 years old." Those may be the only two outcomes you're considering, but they aren't the only two outcomes that are possible. You've just plucked the 2,000-year age out of the air because that's the specific age you need in order for your belief in authenticity to hold. An age that is salient because of the belief is not also immediately salient in terms of the evidence.

In the scale analogy, you can introduce categories to cover multitudes of individual outcomes. But all the individual possible outcomes must fit into one or the other category, so that you continue to have two pans. That is, if one pan of the scale is "700 years old," then in order to fit the two-possible-outcomes limitation, the other pan has to be "not 700 years old." That way all possible outcomes fall into one category or the other. Then and only then can you say that undermining the 700-year age tilts any sort of scale. But the direction toward which it tilts is merely "not 700 years," not "2,000 years." There are quite a lot of dates that aren't 700 years but which also aren't 2,000 years.

If you show that the 700-year age is untenable for one reason or another, you can't immediately assert that it must be 2,000 years old. The cloth may eventually fail to be a 700-year-old forgery, but you won't have eliminated the possibility that it's, say, a 1,000-year-old forgery or a 1,500-year-old forgery.
 
- Keep in mind that I'm not claiming that adding acceptance that the stains are in fact blood to the scale would make the scale favor authenticity -- I'm just claiming that adding such acceptance would affect the tilt of the scale, and the tilt would be more towards authenticity than it had been before the addition. Does that help?

It makes no difference if it's blood or not. The cloth can be no older than 1290. If it is blood it has to have been put on the cloth after that date. If it's not blood, the material has to have been put on the cloth after that date.
 
It doesn't even tilt the scale less toward inauthenticity.

In terms of chronology, no. But as Jabba has stated, he wants to use the confirmation of the purported bloodstains as actual blood to be some kind of universal McCrone-killer. He plans to use it to cast vague aspersions on McCrone (who concludes the stains are not blood) and thereby, without further effort, dismiss any other of McCrone's findings.

But this too has already been discussed to death. Even if McCrone is proven wrong on the blood, according to facts, then McCrone's other findings would still have to be examined piecewise, also according to the facts, to see whether they stood up. This would be as we proposed to do with Jabba's own authors, Marino et al. Jabba displays his double standard toward purported expert testimony. One error discredits McCrone entirely, according to him, but a multitude of errors still doesn't discredit Marino.

That still depends on Jabba being able to prove his affirmative claim that the stains really are blood. And he apparently knows he can't, which is why he's tried twice in as many weeks to reverse the burden of proof.
 
- Keep in mind that I'm not claiming that adding acceptance that the stains are in fact blood to the scale would make the scale favor authenticity -- I'm just claiming that adding such acceptance would affect the tilt of the scale, and the tilt would be more towards authenticity than it had been before the addition. Does that help?

We understand exactly what you're claiming. We understood it the first eleventy-nine times.

IT IS NONSENSE.
 
- Keep in mind that I'm not claiming that adding acceptance that the stains are in fact blood to the scale would make the scale favor authenticity -- I'm just claiming that adding such acceptance would affect the tilt of the scale, and the tilt would be more towards authenticity than it had been before the addition. Does that help?

Lack of blood would be heavy, even conclusive evidence against authenticy.

At the moment, there is no proof either way. There may or may not be blood there. Thus, the blood issue does not provide evidence against authenticy.

Thus removing it (by showing there is indeed blood) would not change the weight of evidence against authenticy. You are not taking weight out out of the anti pan, because it was not there in the first place.

Also, it will not add weight to the pro pan, because blood could have originated from many sources.

Hans
 
Lack of blood would be heavy, even conclusive evidence against authenticy.

In general, no, but in this specific case, yes. If there were no blood on the cloth, or anything purporting to be blood, you could still argue it was used to wrap a corpse that had been washed. In this specific case, we have stains asserted by proponents of authenticity to be blood. Those must be blood, if the cloth is authentic. If they are supposed to be blood, but aren't, then you have your conclusive evidence.
 
In general, no, but in this specific case, yes. If there were no blood on the cloth, or anything purporting to be blood, you could still argue it was used to wrap a corpse that had been washed. In this specific case, we have stains asserted by proponents of authenticity to be blood. Those must be blood, if the cloth is authentic. If they are supposed to be blood, but aren't, then you have your conclusive evidence.

Mmm, well. If it was a real burial shroud, but sans blood (a plausible scenario) what are the fake blood stains doing on it?

The genuine shroud of JC, but adulterated with fake blood stains and, presumably, fake images, while we're at it? Well, if the traces on the cloth are not the traces of its use as a shroud, what are the evidence that it is a shroud? Even without the C14 dating, how could anybody even make it plausible that it wasn't just ... any piece of cloth?

... Blood stains, weak as they are logically, are a necessary straw for authenticists to grap.

Hans.
 
Mmm, well. If it was a real burial shroud, but sans blood (a plausible scenario) what are the fake blood stains doing on it?

Exactly. In this case the "blood" had better be blood because there's something there purporting to be blood.

But if you came to me with joe random cloth claiming it's a burial shroud, and I asked you "Where's the blood?" then you could legitimately answer, "Why would you expect there to be any?"
 
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