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Mind over Matter

timf1234 said:
We are not talking about brain. Brain is matter. Matter definitely affects matter. We are talking about thoughts, awareness, consciousness, XYZ, whatever you want to call it. Can mind affect matter? Basically, do we have free will?
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Well, then clue me in. What, exactly, is a "thought, awareness, consciousness, XYZ, whatever you want to call it"? Can you describe it in a non-symbolic way? Can you measure it? Can you detect it in any way other than the functions of the brain?
 
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Thought itself is matter.
Matter is energy.
Thought is a process whereyby electrons and ions of various sorts, mostly calcium, move across synapses between neurons. (Whether that process "is" thought, or thought is a result of that process is a largely semantic issue. The point is that thought is an electromagnetic effect just as much as the current that flows through a motor, interacts with a magnetic field and causes a torque that turns the motor.

There is no point at which this is not an electromagnetic- and therefore material , process.

You know the school experiment using bits of metal and a lemon to drive a motor? You could do it with a brain too.
Difference is the brain is evolved to do it and has lots of control and signal amplification circuitry that a lemon lacks.
 
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timf1234 said:
We are not talking about brain. Brain is matter. Matter definitely affects matter. We are talking about thoughts, awareness, consciousness, XYZ, whatever you want to call it. Can mind affect matter? Basically, do we have free will?
Click to expand...

Why do you keep using three long words to do the job of one short word? "Thoughts, awareness, consciousness"? Just say "mind".

"Mind" is not a material thing. It is an abstract, a process performed by matter. However, the mechanisms underlying the mind are purely material. Looking at the brain on a purely physical level, it's matter affecting matter. Cause and effect, no outside influence, no mind.

But looking at it on the meta level, the interplay of these material mechanisms are the mind. From this point of view, the mind is a material thing, and can affect the body (sending signals through the nerves to the muscles), and through the body can affect the external world.

Your question of "do we have free will" is a different matter. I say yes we do have free will, but our free will is rooted in deterministic material processes.

You may object to this perspective. If you wish to discuss the question of the existence of "free will", we must first define what exactly the phrase "free will" means. I define it as "capacity for autonomous actions and decision-making free from undue outside influence".

How do you define "free will"?
 
I think it all depends how you want to define the phrase, "mind over matter". If you mean staring at an iron bar and bending or melting it with your mind, that's going to be a really tough one. However, if you mean things like doing what you would consider 'superhuman' feats of physical endurance, say, in times of emergency, then that's feasible.

I had a friend in 6th grade who would test himself by holding very hot cups of coffee/water that weren't hot enough to actually burn the skin, but way too hot hold. He would go into a kind of trance like state staring straight ahead and taking deep breaths until the cup cooled down. He decided to take his new found ability to the next level and did 100 sit ups in a row before the school principal freaked out and made him stop.

I think it should also be pointed out that with great frequency I hear the term 'confirmation bias' bandied about on this forum. Anytime anyone comments on things like being weakened by strong electromagnetic fields and such, instantly, someone is going to say, "Dude, that's just confirmation bias." Suppose for a minute that it is just a confirmation bias, then the mind directly affects the matter of your body.

The world record holders for long distance fire walking are able to do similar feats:) . It's not magic, but it is impressive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwFX5lVoxvg&feature=fvw
 
timf1234 said:
Can awareness, consciousness, thought effect matter?
1) matter inside your body
2) matter outside your body

or only matter can effect matter regarless of inside our outside your body.
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Yes, under certain conditions it can.
Placebo-effect would be an example of thought effecting matter inside the body under certain terms and agreements. (Don't expect me agreeing of stating you can swallow plain normal spoons and vomit them out with golden coating...)

Thought effecting matter outside the body is quite obvious. At this moment I am handling/effect matter outside my body while typing this sentence. I use my hands to push the buttons on the keyboard which I can see as effecting matter outside the body.

The key here is that an idea or movement as being worked out by the brain (I will not get into the debate of how we are able to think and how our awareness came to be, since I do not know it). The key here is that there will always be an agent to effect matter, an agent which is used to effect changes and modifications. The placebo-effect is a whole (and quite interesting) other subject concerning the effecting of matter inside the body. It is also a very powerfull and massively confusing concept, not to mention very delusive if you look at certain situations wherein placebo-effects are being used to proove faith and other inconsistent ideas.

The mind is over matter, but with the mind alone no effect can be reached, an agent is needed to make things work. As an example: you cannot bend spoons or let compasses turn just by "thinking" and "wanting them" to turn. You bend spoons by the agent of hands, you let compasses turn if you adjust their angle by the agent of hands or you let them turn with the agent of magnets.
 
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timf1234 said:
I think you hit the nail on the head.
You used exact wording needed here "force".
Yap. Now I am better equiped to argue with theist.

However, I still have one missing link.
How does unconscious/unaware matter creates awareness?
This doesn't happen in the computer.
Same question can be asked about "feeling", "taste", "sensation". Where do they come from?
That seems supernatural.
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Actually you do not have a missing link because your question has nothing to do with the OP.

But the answer is simple - the brain is where feeling, taste, sensation, awareness come from. They are all experienced in the brain. This is very natural - have a look at your pet showing feeling, taste, sensation, awareness sometime (or for that matter your garden!).

Computers have feeling, taste, sensation. It is probable that awareness is just a question of making a complex enough computer.

But your mention of theist suggest that you are trying to discuss religion or philosophy rather than science. If so then I suggest you get this thread moved to the appropriate section.
 
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timf1234 said:
Can awareness, consciousness, thought effect matter?
1) matter inside your body
2) matter outside your body

or only matter can effect matter regarless of inside our outside your body.
Click to expand...

No.

Except in the sense that your thoughts result in actions, themselves affecting matter.
 
Thoughts are (roughly speaking) electrical signals in your brain. They can directly affect matter outside the body. Especially if that matter makes up purpose-made sensors placed on your scalp. Does that help? :o
 
timf1234 said:
No.
Your thought that attempt to slow down your heart rate is only the afteraffect of matter already in motion in you body and brain. These matter slows down your heart. This gives you an illusion that your thought slowed down your heart rate.
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Fair enough, so yours is that the causal connection is not that the thought.

Why the dualism earlier?

It is ALL the behavior of matter.
 
DevilsAdvocate said:
Well, then clue me in. What, exactly, is a "thought, awareness, consciousness, XYZ, whatever you want to call it"? Can you describe it in a non-symbolic way? Can you measure it? Can you detect it in any way other than the functions of the brain?
Click to expand...

Can you describe how does sweet taste?
Of course, fMRI can see in the brain that the tounge must have touched something sweet but it can't describe the sensation of sweetness.

similarly, awareness, consciousness, XYZ, whatever you want to call it is the experience that I exist, I think, I am aware of my surrounding. We do not have correct language to describe it.

You can fill in the gap.
 
timf1234 said:
In addition, if thought could effect matter inside my body then why can't it effect outside the body as well? May be thought can't effect any mattter inside or outside the body.
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The matter inside your body is all connected. Your thoughts arise in your brain, which is connected by nerves to the rest of your body. Those nerves carry impulses to muscles that make them move.
 
Dimitri said:
Yes, under certain conditions it can.
Placebo-effect would be an example of thought effecting matter inside the body under certain terms and agreements. (Don't expect me agreeing of stating you can swallow plain normal spoons and vomit them out with golden coating...)

Thought effecting matter outside the body is quite obvious. At this moment I am handling/effect matter outside my body while typing this sentence. I use my hands to push the buttons on the keyboard which I can see as effecting matter outside the body.

The key here is that an idea or movement as being worked out by the brain (I will not get into the debate of how we are able to think and how our awareness came to be, since I do not know it). The key here is that there will always be an agent to effect matter, an agent which is used to effect changes and modifications. The placebo-effect is a whole (and quite interesting) other subject concerning the effecting of matter inside the body. It is also a very powerfull and massively confusing concept, not to mention very delusive if you look at certain situations wherein placebo-effects are being used to proove faith and other inconsistent ideas.

The mind is over matter, but with the mind alone no effect can be reached, an agent is needed to make things work. As an example: you cannot bend spoons or let compasses turn just by "thinking" and "wanting them" to turn. You bend spoons by the agent of hands, you let compasses turn if you adjust their angle by the agent of hands or you let them turn with the agent of magnets.
Click to expand...

Placebo-effect.
Very interesting. For a few seconds I thouhgt that's it. But then when I paid more attention to it then I realized, that althoguht fake medicine has no intended chemical reaction in the subject's body but patients were told and observed himself taking the tablet that he thoguht is medicine. Hearing and seeing triggers mechanical motion of matter in his brain and body. This matter eventually effected his body.

so even in placebo-effect, ONLY matter affect matter not mind or thought.
 
Brian-M said:
Why do you keep using three long words to do the job of one short word? "Thoughts, awareness, consciousness"? Just say "mind".

"Mind" is not a material thing. It is an abstract, a process performed by matter. However, the mechanisms underlying the mind are purely material. Looking at the brain on a purely physical level, it's matter affecting matter. Cause and effect, no outside influence, no mind.

But looking at it on the meta level, the interplay of these material mechanisms are the mind. From this point of view, the mind is a material thing, and can affect the body (sending signals through the nerves to the muscles), and through the body can affect the external world.

Your question of "do we have free will" is a different matter. I say yes we do have free will, but our free will is rooted in deterministic material processes.

You may object to this perspective. If you wish to discuss the question of the existence of "free will", we must first define what exactly the phrase "free will" means. I define it as "capacity for autonomous actions and decision-making free from undue outside influence".

How do you define "free will"?
Click to expand...

Word "Free" in "Free Will" is the death of "Free Will". Even "Will" has implied "free" in it. Therefore, even "will" can't exist.
Like God, Free Will can't be define. Neither God nor Free Will can't exist.
 
Reality Check said:
Actually you do not have a missing link because your question has nothing to do with the OP.

But the answer is simple - the brain is where feeling, taste, sensation, awareness come from. They are all experienced in the brain. This is very natural - have a look at your pet showing feeling, taste, sensation, awareness sometime (or for that matter your garden!).

Computers have feeling, taste, sensation. It is probable that awareness is just a question of making a complex enough computer.

But your mention of theist suggest that you are trying to discuss religion or philosophy rather than science. If so then I suggest you get this thread moved to the appropriate section.
Click to expand...


"Computers have feeling, taste, sensation."

If above statement is true then there is no missing link in the chain of logic.

philosophy or religion or anything that defies science is useless stuff. EVERYTHNG msut be understood, using science. Science includes, reason, logic, psychology, and everything imagainable and non-imaginable under the SUN. There is no Wisdom without holistic view. You can box wisdom in religon or scinece seaction seperately. Everything must be sorted out in single location, under science.
 
Belz... said:
No.

Except in the sense that your thoughts result in actions, themselves affecting matter.
Click to expand...

That's the whole point.
Do the thought produces action or the matter that produced the thought in the first place made your hand move? Thought is just the passive emergence of the underlying material activity.
 
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