Military Training/Brainwashing

crimresearch said:
It orginates in not accurately reiterating what I said.

I did not say that the ability to break rules without getting caught was the primary valuable trait. I said that rule breaking is far too often seen as acceptable in order to achieve goals.

Allow me to recap:
Today's military stresses performance, and in many cases, is not amenable to excuses like 'but that might be wrong', or ' we might get in trouble'.
A service member who gets things done is going to move up faster than one who doesn't (as a general rule).

If in pursuit of the primary objective, a few rules get bent, or even broken,the soldier who has performed is liable to be cut more slack than an excuse maker.

So today's military values a thinking soldier who can find a way to achieve objectives, and not let obstacles ( which may sometimes include rules) stand in their way.

In other words, someone who can take risks, get things done, and not always stick to playing it safe and by the rules.

So yes, what I actually said is a generalization, and one that reflects prevalent behaviors and attitudes in the military, and other organizations as well.

Unless of course you have another explanation for the military's record of getting things done, and its equally extensive record of mishaps and scandals.

Really, that is not the attitude I was trained to have. I can't speak for everybody else's experience, but it certainly wasn't mine. And there were some people that did break the letter of the law and get away with it here or there.... But they weren't what you would call screw ups. Some even brought to light that reasonably exceptions should be written in to the rules/law for a unique situation like the one that occurred.

Breaking the rules in the military was for the most part, flatly discouraged in my experience.
 
So are you saying that you were encouraged to fail to meet goals, as long as you had a good excuse? Because that certainly isn't the military I'm familiar with. And I don't think that reflects the military of the last 3 years either.

(And I do fully admit that I have less experience with the '90s 'PC' military of pleading drill instructors, quality circles, and so forth.
Note that I said 'less', not 'no' experience ).

Paul
 
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scotth said:


Well, it does say that they told her how to pose. That is usually part of telling someone how to pose. How to stand, where to look, grin or not.

..............
what you said...

But if you kicked them out on their earlier stuff, people would be all over you being to harsh. Sometimes, they straighten up. You never know.

Thanks for taking the time.. I really hope you didn't go to all that trouble just for me...

You seemed to have missed my point, which was : " Under orders or not, it looked like she was having fun... "

Since this seems to be the thrust of her defense, it seems like any indication of reluctance on her part would make her story a little more convincing..

Maybe that reluctance shows up on some yet to be released pictures...
 
Skeptic said:
So even if the soldier is naive enough to accept the BS story that the high command made torture legal--an extremely unlikely event--he would still reply simply that this doesn't matter: it doesn't make torture legal, it only makes the high command as much of a military criminal as the sergeant who orders you to torture.

"Putting people in stress positions" and other means of causing people extreme physical or psychological pain are used as interrogation tools by agents of the US government. They just say that doing so isn't torture, and they're off to the races.

So ordering a soldier to tie someone up in a painful position and leave them there for agonising hours is a legal order, since by government fiat it isn't torture. But ordering a woman to point at a prisoner's wedding tackle is an illegal order.

I don't think that distinction is going to be intuitive or obvious to the average army recruit.

For the more egregious instances of abuse, including rape and murder, obviously the same ambiguity is not present. But the pictures that have been referred to as being like fraternity pranks are, indeed, not obviously greatly different from "softening up" tactics that have been declared to be legal.
 
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Diogenes said:


Thanks for taking the time.. I really hope you didn't go to all that trouble just for me...

You seemed to have missed my point, which was : " Under orders or not, it looked like she was having fun... "

Since this seems to be the thrust of her defense, it seems like any indication of reluctance on her part would make her story a little more convincing..

Maybe that reluctance shows up on some yet to be released pictures...

I would even agree that it "looked' like she was having fun. Could have been part of "posing". I guess we'll just have to wait and see, and hope the truth comes out.
 
American said:



My dad was in the Spanish-American war and he says the Maine was really sunk by Spanish children playing with fireworks.

In truth, modern investigators have concluded that the Maine was not purposely blown up, but exploded due to a design flaw where a magazine was adjacent to a boiler room/engine compartment that overheated and set off stored ammunition.
 
crimresearch said:
So are you saying that you were encouraged to fail to meet goals, as long as you had a good excuse?

I think that is a pretty big leap from what I said.

Accomplishing the mission was a very high priority. But the attitude that we could break any rule we wanted to do so, as long as it was in support of mission accomplishment wasn't there.

I can give a parallel to civilian life. You are heading to the hospital with a passenger that is in some type of medical distress. The speed limit says "60", but it is clear, and you go a bit faster. You are breaking the law, but in this case, you probably wouldn't get much grief from the police. Potentially saving someone's life would/should get you a pass on that one.

Same situation, where you are getting a passenger to a hospital. You see an old lady in the crosswalk, you decide that you can wait for her slow traversal of the road, and just run her over and keep going. You're not gonna get cut any slack in this case.

I never saw any attitude to tolerate breaking the rules much outside of the situations similar to the first case.
 
Re: Re: Military Training/Brainwashing

T'ai Chi said:
It isn't a coincidence that the military advertising campaigns are primarily focused on young, uneducated, naive people.

My view of the whole war thing, is that violence has a habit of returning. I don't like attacks on the US, and I also don't like US attacks (and this applies to every country).

I am pro-US of course, but I would like to think it is better to be pro-Earth first.

(edited to change World to Earth)

Ah, the old "cycle of violence" theory. The best way to break the cycle of violence is to win. Turning the other check just gets you slapped again.

If you're "pro-Earth first", then I'm sure you are absolutely in love with the impotence and stalwart complacency of the United Nations.

As far as military advertising, you got one out of three.
Young? Yes.
Uneducated and naive? No. The military tests for intelligence and reasoning before accepting recruits.
 
Kodiak said:


In truth, modern investigators have concluded that the Maine was not purposely blown up, but exploded due to a design flaw where a magazine was adjacent to a boiler room/engine compartment that overheated and set off stored ammunition.


No, it was kids with fireworks. Spanish kids.
 
"Accomplishing the mission was a very high priority. But the attitude that we could break any rule we wanted to do so, as long as it was in support of mission accomplishment wasn't there."

Which would be fine, if it *always* worked that way in reality, instead of on paper.
But in reality, the military (just like every organization), has an almost non-stop track record of major and minor screw ups, scandals, unintended consequences, and so forth.
That is because (just like every organization), the military suffers from group think, differential association, mission creep, tunnel vision, span of control problems, and so forth.

If strict adherence to the rules by thinking and independent individuals were truly the universal standard in the military, we wouldn't have the current pictures from Iraq, or the USS Iowa, or fragging, or John Walker, or the khaki mafia, or Little Big Horn, or cumshaw, or the various military rape scandals, and so on, and so on.

Dissecting those real world mishaps, the common thread appears time and time again..my term for it is that somebody was 'too cool for the rules'. Whether it was ego, or miscommunication, or goal orientation, or whatever, the rules are always subvertible to a 'greater good', and therefor get broken with great regularity.

The 'Good Ship Lollipop' notion sounds great in a training film, but until the military admits that it is an unrealistic ideal, the reality is never going to go away, no matter how badly some might wish it.
 
Re: Re: Re: Military Training/Brainwashing

Kodiak said:

Ah, the old "cycle of violence" theory. The best way to break the cycle of violence is to win. Turning the other check just gets you slapped again.


What is your evidence for your claim of the "best way"? We've ("we've" meaning people all over Earth) been so called breaking the cycle of violence by fighting back for thousands upon thousands of years. Take a recent example, the "war to end all wars". Yeah...I guess it didn't end all wars after all, given than many occured after it. The only way fighting back will stop violence is if/when it destroys all people on Earth so no one is alive to fight.

The only way, IMO, fighting can stop is for everyone to actually stop fighting. I agree, the tricky part is that everyone has to play, something that people are afraid to do.


As far as military advertising, you got one out of three.
Young? Yes.
Uneducated and naive? No. The military tests for intelligence and reasoning before accepting recruits.

I don't have any statistics on the number of accepted divided by the number who have tested, given their scores, so I can't say either way. By uneducated I mean most of them are just out of high school. They haven't been exposed to much of the 'real world'.
 
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T'ai Chi said:
I don't have any statistics on the number of accepted divided by the number who have tested, given their scores, so I can't say either way. By uneducated I mean most of them are just out of high school. They haven't been exposed to much of the 'real world'. [/B]

Well, that pretty much goes with the 'young' part. Those that are well educated (4 year degree) generally become officers.

Edit to say what a great read this thread is.
 
Band of Brothers, "Carentan":

Lt. Speirs: Do you know why you hid in that ditch, Blythe?

Blythe: Because I was scared.

Lt. Speirs: We're all scared. You hid in that ditch because you think there's still hope. But Blithe, the only hope you have is to accept the fact that you're already dead. And the sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll be able to function as a soldier is supposed to function. Without mercy. Without compassion. Without remorse. All war depends on it.
 
So are you saying that the use of cluster bombs in this war was illegal, or are you denying that it happened?

Neither. Have you stopped beating up your friend yet?

Also the number of allied forces and journalists who have been attacked in this conflict makes it appear that the people involved are likely to obey that order anyway.

Mistakes are not an indication of blind obedience.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Military Training/Brainwashing

T'ai Chi said:

I don't have any statistics on the number of accepted divided by the number who have tested, given their scores, so I can't say either way. By uneducated I mean most of them are just out of high school. They haven't been exposed to much of the 'real world'. [/B]

They begin recruiting way before a child graduates. They are allowed to actively recruit in schools.

This may be a thread drift and we could fill a whole seperate thread by discussing recruiting tactics.
 
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tamiO said:


They begin recruiting way before a child graduates. They are allowed to actively recruit in schools.

This may be a thread drift and we could fill a whole seperate thread by discussing recruiting tactics.

So too factories, colleges, and most other organizations. It's called career day in my neck of the woods. Not everyone is cut out for college but some that are cannot afford it. The (U.S) military is but one useful stepping stone to a degree. If you're bright enough, they'll even pay your way completely through it...while you're on active duty.
 

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