Military Training/Brainwashing

I see several people here posting what they believe about the military based on faulty sources of information. I think a few of you have seen to many movies.
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I wish it were that simple. How would explain how a whole facility complete with an internal chain of command could have operated in that fasion for a whole year?

Here is a very good article on why the “just following orders” defense does not work
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From your own personal experiance, what would have been the the personal consequences if you disobeyed an order of your superior officer even if you felt you were given an illegal order?
I'm not asking what is supposed to happen by the book, what do you think would probably happen in a realistic setting? what would you think would happen in the field in time of war? and would you be inclined to challenge the order?

In this particular instance, I think the solder might have feared for his life if he had disobeyed. Especially if his CO was deemed insane. It would appear to me that this poor guy was railroaded because the incident probably got publicized.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Military Training/Brainwashing

Grammatron said:
... do you have some sort of hot line set up that you call every time you want to do something?
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In a way, yes. I do. The government has its ways of informing people about what is legal and illegal. Now, I don't come into conflict, because I try to avoid situations where the government would give me conflicting orders. For example: I know that killing people is illegal, so I avoid being ordered to kill someone by the government. If I would be in such a situation, how can I know what I am supposed to do? How could I know the difference between the government legitimately saying 'it's illegal except in this case' and an illegal order?
 
It's rather obvious, TamiO and Earthborn, that you have never been in the military, since your questions show rather abyssimal ignorance of it.

First, all veterans here would tell you immediatelly that the idea that in the military "you follow orders without thinking" is nonsense. That's Hollywood version of the "unthinking robots of the military", not real life.

Second, it is quite clear for most soliders whether an order is legal or illegal, 99% of the time at least: you use your common sense and also your knowledge of the military code related to treating prisoners, which every soldier is given. It is not harder for a soldier to recognize that an order to torture prisoners is illegal than it is for a civilian to recognize that pickpocketing someone's wallet is illegal. You don't have to be a lawyer to know either.

It is none of my business, TamiO, what you tell your daughter about the military. But objecting to it because it "makes you an unthinking obeyer of order" is about as accurate as objecting to your daughter going to medical school because it would make her a "tool of the drug companies that only cares about the symnptoms, not the person", as the "alternative medicine" nuts keep telling us.
 
In some services the officer/enlisted relationship is strong enough for this, in others careerism on both sides prevents it. In either case those NCO's that didn't step up are just as responsible as the those who commited the crimes.

You just don't let the old man get away with ambigous orders in a borderline illegal situation. Especially since it's obvious that he doesn't have the courage to flat out tell you to commit a crime then he won't have the courage to stand by you if you get caught..
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Agreed. It's not The military I am criticizing here, but rather human nature.

They did say in the news that the prison was tooken over by military intelligence. So if there was an "order" it may have come from a high source.
 
Actually, what is a dead giveaway as to TamiO's having never been in the military are these damning words hidden deep inside her post.
"I have never been in the military nor have I ever been interested in joining. "

Now the casual reader might miss these entirely, and be fooled into thinking that she was claiming first hand knowledge of how things are, but the seasoned skeptic will add that first little detail to the even more incriminating fact that she admits that 'these have been her thoughts on the miitary'.

See...'*her* thoughts'..and '*never been in*..?

Now try to follow the logic...the odds are very high that TamiO has actually never been in the military, and is in fact trying to make us all believe that these are her thoughts on the matter!!

Creepy, isn't it?
:p
 
Another former G.I. here.

The unthinking drone idea is nonsense and simply wouldn't work.

Why did so many soldiers report the illegal activities if they are all drones?

The excuse of "Just following orders" is totally unacceptable.

Totally.
 
Skeptic said:
It is not harder for a soldier to recognize that an order to torture prisoners is illegal than it is for a civilian to recognize that pickpocketing someone's wallet is illegal. You don't have to be a lawyer to know either.
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So when a soldier is ordered to torture prisoners and the authority that orders him/her to says that it has been authorized by the highest government officials, how is can this person know whether it was authorized by the highest officials or not?

This soldier may know that it was illegal under the law as it was taught him/her in military school, but perhaps it was made legal and s/he just didn't know it.
 
An order to torture prisoners is always illegal.

I would not follow such an order. I would refuse and ask to speak to a superior officer.

It might result in my court martial, but that is exactlywhat I will get anyway if I follow it.

The difference is that my conscience will be clear if I don't follow it.
 
I don't have military experience so I'm asking out of ignorance here.....

I seem to remember some argument about a passage in Ambrose's "Band of Brothers" regarding an understanding not to take prisoners suring the D Day attacks.

What about such things as "Take no prisoners...." type of orders. Do they happen? Are they legal?
"Look men, we have to attack and move on quickly. We cannot afford to take any prisoners. Fix bayonets and charge."
If the enemy wants to surrender are you obliged to take it?

I have to think that despite the stated right to disobey an illegal order, the trained spur of the moment response, the ignorance as to what constitutes legal and significant peer pressure makes this a very sticky issue that the military might find uncomfortable.
 
I am neither a soldier nor a lawyer, but here...

From the earliers writtings about combat, it has always been better to capture your enemy than to kill him/her.

Sun Tzu reasoned that a captured and well-cared for POW might decide to fight for you in the long run.

I can see how in this modern age, the same holds true, especially in this situation. Perhaps the vigilanty snipers harrasssing the Falluja cleric's troops are some of the "converts" who were treated with respect when captured.
 
crimresearch said:
Actually, what is a dead giveaway as to TamiO's having never been in the military are these damning words hidden deep inside her post.
"I have never been in the military nor have I ever been interested in joining. "
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Yes, and similarly it was a dead giveaway that was never in the military when I said: "I avoid being ordered to kill someone by the government."

If I was in the military, I would be really confused about what is a legal order and what isn't. An order to drop clusterbombs on a civilian area far away from military targets 'because enemy forces are hiding there' (something I cannot verify myself) causing many civilian casualties: legal.
An order to 'soften up these prisoners' because 'they have important information' (something I cannot verify myself): illegal.

Apperently the things that are illegal are not the things that are worst, so I cannot use my moral conscience to decide whether something should or should no be done. Without that, what else do I have then to follow authority?
 
Skeptic said:
It's rather obvious, TamiO and Earthborn, that you have never been in the military, since your questions show rather abyssimal ignorance of it.

First, all veterans here would tell you immediatelly that the idea that in the military "you follow orders without thinking" is nonsense. That's Hollywood version of the "unthinking robots of the military", not real life.

Second, it is quite clear for most soliders whether an order is legal or illegal, 99% of the time at least: you use your common sense and also your knowledge of the military code related to treating prisoners, which every soldier is given. It is not harder for a soldier to recognize that an order to torture prisoners is illegal than it is for a civilian to recognize that pickpocketing someone's wallet is illegal. You don't have to be a lawyer to know either.

It is none of my business, TamiO, what you tell your daughter about the military. But objecting to it because it "makes you an unthinking obeyer of order" is about as accurate as objecting to your daughter going to medical school because it would make her a "tool of the drug companies that only cares about the symnptoms, not the person", as the "alternative medicine" nuts keep telling us.
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I think I made it lear that I have never been in the military and that I got my information through other means. I did not, however, get my impressions from Hollywood. Some of my impressions come from people who tried to desperatly get out of bootcamp because of the dehumanising process they were being put through.

I also made it clear, I hope, that I would never be able to kill anyone intentionally. This was the reminder I gave my daughter, that it wasn't all education opportunities, she may someday be asked to kill someone.

I wouldn't have stopped her from going in the military, that would be her decision after researching the whole thing. Just listening to a recruiter you get the idea that it IS all education opportunities and glory and respect. Travel the world! See interesting places!

I tried to word my post carefully because I have found that military people will defend the military at all costs. It's that loyalty thing. It's what Luke T. referred to as having it engrained in his DNA.

I am enjoying reading over the different views on the topic I brought up. It is very interesting reading thus far. Thank you all.
 
crimresearch said:
"The day of the military drone ended a long time ago. Modern warfare requires soldier to be alert and thinking in order to function. "

Sitting through some ROTC lectures is one thing.
Being in the miitary under real world daily conditions can be something else entirely.
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[sarcasm]
No kidding? I never new that, seeing as all I ever did was go to school.
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What is constantly drilled into everyone is that perfomance counts, and if it can be done under the rules, fine, but it damn well better get done, rules or no rules. The 'thinking' soldier that the military values is one who can get the job done, without getting *caught* bending the rules.
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The point of those lectures is that those who have been through them cannot claim ignorance. Neither can those above or below them.

In reality some soldiers follow illegal orders. Some report them. Others ignore them. How the leadership responds after that matters.

We already know that some soldiers did report what happened inside that prison.

Now which real world conditions are you discussing here? On the battlefield, things are tough and bad things will happen. Sometimes there are consequences and sometimes there are not. What happened in that prison did not occur in combat. These people had time to think about their actions and did the wrong thing repeatedly.

Now can you explain to me where you get the idea that the ability to get caught determines a soldiers worth? I think you are painting the whole of the military with a rather broad brush. Care to explain the origin of that opinion.
 
Earthborn said:
So when a soldier is ordered to torture prisoners and the authority that orders him/her to says that it has been authorized by the highest government officials, how is can this person know whether it was authorized by the highest officials or not?

This soldier may know that it was illegal under the law as it was taught him/her in military school, but perhaps it was made legal and s/he just didn't know it.
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Actually EB, what you are describing is a healthy command structure. In your post the order to torture comes down from an unambiguous "highest government official"...ie; high ranking superior officer....

Now I won't tell you it can't happen, but I will say that the situation at Abu Ghraib shows the exact opposite. There were absentee and incompetent officers...poor training...etc. Some low level people were given power of life or death over these prisoners. That kind of power, unchecked by higher authority, corrupts. Have you ever read "Lord of the Flies"?? You should, it details the descent into savagery that we all as humans are suseptible to.

I don't think that Army training makes anyone more apt to exhibit this kind of behaviour. The opposite really,...the tighter the training and control, the less likely this kind of stuff would be. Back in the early 80's when I was in we had a saying that "You meet all kinds in the Army"...as in every type of human one could ever meet...from the worst human to the best. The fact that there exist sadistic MP's does not surprise me....the fact that the chain of command failed to control their actions however does.

-z
 
So when a soldier is ordered to torture prisoners and the authority that orders him/her to says that it has been authorized by the highest government officials, how is can this person know whether it was authorized by the highest officials or not?

This soldier may know that it was illegal under the law as it was taught him/her in military school, but perhaps it was made legal and s/he just didn't know it.

...and maybe pickpocketing was legalized and I just didn't know. Hey, that's what Fagin, the guy trying to recruit me to his pickpocketing gang, said.

Again, common sense would tell the soldier immediatelly that such a story is total BS, as it is unlikely in the extreme that the President of the USA change the law and made torture legal and nobody heard about it or cared enough to note it. If his sergeant asks him instead to buy the Brooklyn bridge, claiming that the President of the USA gave the sergeant the rights for that bridge last week, he would find it easier to convince the soldier in question.

And, in any case, it wouldn't matter. You are taught as a soldier that torture is forbidden because is it a blatant crime and atrocity in and of itself, not because it violated subsection 234/k of the military penal code; you are taught that it is a crime regardless of who orders it, whether it is your sergeant or your supreme commander.

So even if the soldier is naive enough to accept the BS story that the high command made torture legal--an extremely unlikely event--he would still reply simply that this doesn't matter: it doesn't make torture legal, it only makes the high command as much of a military criminal as the sergeant who orders you to torture.
 
". . .So even if the soldier is naive enough to accept the BS story that the high command made torture legal. . ."

Anyway it really doesn't matter whether or not these people believed that what they were doing was sanctioned by their seniors or legal. In the military, as in civilian life, ignorance of the law is not a viable defense.
 
An order to drop cluster bombs on civilian areas without any evidence at all of enemy fighters hiding there / fighting from there would be an illegal order, Earthborn.

That's why we use guided weapons in these areas to try to limit our damage to the enemy troops.

Likely, the enemy will be shooting at your plane and you will not be in doubt that he is hiding down there.

It is not possible to write down every situation a soldier is likely to run across and put it in a manual for study. That's why we need soldiers to think and interpret and question.

Perhaps you will be ordered to attack an enemy convoy by your commander. It is entirely possible that when you get to this enemy convoy, you will recognize it as a convoy of allied troops. Obviously, you will be expected to disobey your orders. Your commander will expect you to disobey his orders in such a case.
 
I'll bet every military person in the U.S. will soon be taking several classes on this stuff.

I remember when there were some sexual harassment cases when I was in. The result was class after class after class on everything you could ever imagine and then some about sexual harassment in the military.

We were soooo tired of hearing about it by the time it stopped.
 
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