Miguel asks a stupid question

[Tricky]

Not always, and it isn't easy to match a SSN:

Source.

From that story it looks like there is an advocacy group who supports illegals. That's not the same as the government putting you "under the microscope". It also looks like there are sometimes errors in matching SSNs, but they are most often typos. I would guess they straighten out the typo and then everything is cool. (Though I am quite aware of how a government bungle can screw up your life.)

And apparently, it's also illegal to fire someone found using a fake SSN. Nothing like bureaucracy!

I don't know if this is true or not (no source given), but even if it is, it would mean that you can't fire them for using a fake SSN. It doesn't mean that you can't fire them for being illegal, which you discovered when you identified their fake SSN. It also doesn't mean that you can't refuse to hire them without a real SSN.

But this still ties in with what I said about the government not being serious about restricting illegals in the workplace. These loopholes would be fairly easy to close with simple legislation. That this legislation somehow never seems to make it to the halls of Congress probably has a whole lot to do with the lobbyists for businesses, like the construction industry, making sure such bills don't make it out of committee.

But I'm not saying I would favor such legislation. I don't. I like my cheap labor and cheap prices, but if I had to suffer higer prices for getting the laborers treated fairly, i.e. normal job benefits, I'd bite the bullet. I'm also not into the hypocrisy of blaming the laborers and the landlords and virtually ignoring the people who hire illegals. What do you want to bet that there are a number of people in those communities who hire household workers on a cash-only, no questions asked basis.

 

[Tricky]

Agreed. With 11 million or so illegals already here, we're not going to be able to just round them up and deport them. Not today, not tomorrow, not in 10 years. I don't think there's any good solution, one that will, both morally and pragmatically, satisfy the general American population's outrage about this issue, but I do very much agree with you that it would be better to have the 11 million here become legal so we can get taxes, make them get licenses and insurance when driving, etc, than it would be to continue with the way it is now.

Damn. I could have sworn we started off disagreeing. Ah the wonders of intelligent discussion!

(I'm an atheist, but I find that I still have that moralist streak myself. It's just part of the culture, of growing up here, I think.)

I'm Alabama born and raised myself. I like to think I have good morals, but maybe not exactly the same kind of "good" that is typical of Southerners. Still, like you, I am strongly molded by my upbringing.

I couldn't agree more. The only realistic solution I see on the horizon is if lawyers start finding ways to file Big-Tobacco-style lawsuits against corporations that hire large numbers of illegals, such as this one:

" Associated Press
Oct. 12, 2006 12:26 PM

CHATTANOOGA, Tenn. A federal judge in Chattanooga has granted class action status to a lawsuit that contends Tyson Foods depressed wages by hiring illegal immigrants at eight plants in Tennessee, Alabama, Indiana, Missouri, Texas and Virginia.
Tyson employees' attorney Howard Foster of Chicago today described the ruling as a "very big step," and says he is now seeking damages for thousands of workers at the eight plants."

http://www.alipac.us/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=1581

Yep. That is what will have to happen. Interestingly though, it looks like the suit doesn't so much want the illegals punished as it wants to get money from Tyson Foods. But really, I shouldn't expect anything different. The lawyer's first rule is "only sue people who have money".

We'll have to watch this one to see how it turns out.

 

[skeptifem]

I think the law should be pragmatic. If a law is stupidly punishing harmless people (for example, the laws against marijuana when booze is a much worse drug) then the laws should be changed.

Many harmful diseases are carried by illegal immigrants- drug resistant tb, leprosy, and many others. The abuse of welfare and healthcare programs takes money away from citizens in need of assistance. Hospitals closing due to illegal immigrants using the hospitals services and not paying can increase the distance traveled when someone is in need of emergency care, that can kill people. Illegal immigrants most likely drive uninsured more often than other people. I do not see illegal immigrants as being harmless. Its not like they have malice or anything, but hey, **** happens.

I know and even agree that the laws we have should be obeyed, but dammit, let's work on these stupid laws that just hurt ourselves.

Legalize guest workers and we will no longer be rewarding lawbreakers. Everyone will benefit. Also, we can start collecting taxes from them instead of having them paid under the table.

I do not think its fair to people from other countries that dont have the choice to just hop on over. People from overseas who would love to come to america have to go through all kinds of things to make it over here and become a citizen, I do not see why immigrants who broke the law to be here should get a free ride when the hard working people dont.

 

[pgwenthold]

Yep. That is what will have to happen. Interestingly though, it looks like the suit doesn't so much want the illegals punished as it wants to get money from Tyson Foods. But really, I shouldn't expect anything different. The lawyer's first rule is "only sue people who have money".

There is that, but, OTOH, if you want to address the problem of the employment of illegal immigrants, why don't you go right to the source: the companies are hiring illegal immigrants because they know they can pay them less. So instead of paying the market price for legal workers, they can hire illegal workers, which increases their worker supply and hence depresses prices for the labor.

That is an illegal subversion of the employment market, and the companies _should_ be forced to pay damages, just as they would in any price fixing scheme.

This lawsuit addresses one big aspect of hiring illegal workers: they depress the salaries. Second, depending on who is included in the class, it's possible it would even address the other problem, that the illegal workers are taking jobs from red-white-and-blue-blooded Americans.

No, it's not about punishing illegals. It is about getting to the cause of the illegal immigration problem.

 

[Mephisto]

I do, indeed. And I'm right. Much, much more so than legal residents, illegal immigrants are more likely to drive without a license, and drive intoxicated.

Is that true of ALL illegal immigrants or do you just mean Mexicans? I think most of us can guess the gist of your thread.

Yes, they do. Illegal immigrants are much more likely to commit identity theft.

Are you counting illegal German immigrants? How about illegal Asian immigrants? Nope, it seems all your evidence is centered on Hispanic immigrants. Let's try a matching test (certainly you remember those from school) to see if you can match the stereotype to the group.

A. Negros _______ 1. eat a lot of sausage and sauerkraut

B. Italians _______ 2. lazy and feed off the American taxpayers

C. Mexicans ______ 3. crack addicts, Hos and drug dealers

D. Asians ________ 4. Gangsters who wear sweat suits with gold

E. Germans _______ 5. work in laundries and know Kung Fu

F. Irish _______ 6. hunt crocodiles and live in the outback

G. Australians _______7. always drunk and like to fight

How'd you score?

 

[b33fj3rky]

Is that true of ALL illegal immigrants or do you just mean Mexicans? I think most of us can guess the gist of your thread.

http://www.madd.org/aboutus/0,1056,2552,00.html

A Population at Risk
According to research compiled by Dr. Catherine Clark of the Alcohol Policy Group in Berkeley, Calif., Hispanic drivers are more likely than Anglo drivers to consume more alcohol more frequently and have been shown to be more likely than Anglos to drive with a blood alcohol concentration (BAC) level over .05 percent.

Hispanics also believed that it takes six to eight drinks to affect driving, while Anglos thought two to four drinks affected driving. Even more discouraging is that statistics show that the overall death rate due to motor vehicle crashes is higher among Hispanics than it is among Anglos or African Americans. And, Hispanic male teens are twice as likely as Anglo male teens to die in a car crash.

U.S. Census figures show the Hispanic/Latino population is the youngest and fastest-growing segment in America. This rapid growth, combined with a higher tendency to drive after drinking or ride with an impaired driver, is a recipe for death...

Are you counting illegal German immigrants? How about illegal Asian immigrants? Nope, it seems all your evidence is centered on Hispanic immigrants. Let's try a matching test (certainly you remember those from school) to see if you can match the stereotype to the group.

A. Negros _______ 1. eat a lot of sausage and sauerkraut

B. Italians _______ 2. lazy and feed off the American taxpayers

C. Mexicans ______ 3. crack addicts, Hos and drug dealers

D. Asians ________ 4. Gangsters who wear sweat suits with gold

E. Germans _______ 5. work in laundries and know Kung Fu

F. Irish _______ 6. hunt crocodiles and live in the outback

G. Australians _______7. always drunk and like to fight

How'd you score?

Yes, indeedy, stereotypes exist. Explain, how is this relevant to this thread's topic?

 

[Mephisto]

Yes, indeedy, stereotypes exist. Explain, how is this relevant to this thread's topic?

Perhaps you could explain how the name Miguel is relevant to the thread's topic? While you're at it, you might explain how alcohol abuse is relevant to the thread's topic?

It's clear you believe that people should be denied shelter if they are here illegally; what isn't clear is if you believe that their families and children should suffer too.

 

[skeptifem]

its kind of stupid to act as though the number of non hispanic illegal immigrants is comparable. Its not. The majority of illegal immigrants come over via the southern border.

 

[Mephisto]

its kind of stupid to act as though the number of non hispanic illegal immigrants is comparable. Its not. The majority of illegal immigrants come over via the southern border.

Isn't it equally stupid to believe that all illegal immigrants are alcoholics?

 

[skeptifem]

No one asserted that they were all alcoholics, not even the person discussing alcohol and common attitudes twards it. I havent said anything in relation to that, so direct your comments twards the correct party.

 

[Sally]

I think its different because simply being here is the crime for illegal immigrants. if a drug dealer was constantly making drug deals (even in his sleep) I doubt a landlord would rent to them. there are few crimes that anyone can commit 24/7.

Have you ever tried to get people from a crack house (selling drugs 24/7) evicted. It is not as easy as it would seem. Slum lords don't care and the police are to busy to get involved. I would suspect in many urban areas (like baltimore city usa for me) having a drug dealers renting is much bigger public safety concern than an illegal trying to feed and shelter his family.

 

[skeptifem]

I didnt say it was riskier, just saying that I dont think that landlords would take in a tenet that was committing any crime 24/7 if they knew before singing a lease.

 

[Sally]

I didnt say it was riskier, just saying that I dont think that landlords would take in a tenet that was committing any crime 24/7 if they knew before singing a lease.

Then I counter with slumlords. You manage to kick out one drug dealing family and they simple rent to another. I have personal experience with it on my block and know many others that have had the same.

The laws make it very hard to take away someones' right to rent out a house they own.

 

[skeptifem]

do you think they could house the entire illegal population? I am doubtful.

 

[Tricky]

In the Dallas community, one landlord said that the law made no difference to him because he had long had a policy of requiring tenants to speak English. That screened out almost every illegal. Not sure it's legal, but I can better make a case for not renting to someone you cannot understand than for asking property owners to be police. (But I'm guessing he didn't have low occupancy problems either.)

 

[skeptifem]

i am pretty sure that current guidelines require that immigrants know english, so i am guessing its totally legal.

 

[Sally]

do you think they could house the entire illegal population? I am doubtful.

I was responding to your assumption that landlords would not rent to people engaging illegal activity like drug dealing. It happens all the time especially in urban areas where property owners are just interested in cash and not the area itself.

I assume in areas that have large amounts of illegals you have similar apathetic property owners. I would classify both groups as slumlords since they are subverting the rules of responsible property management.

 

[skeptifem]

i think the law would cut down on illegals renting though- i dont think there are enough slum lords. thats all.

 

[Tricky]

i am pretty sure that current guidelines require that immigrants know english, so i am guessing its totally legal.

I don't know whether that is true or not. Certainly to become a naturalized citizen you have to have a pretty good grasp of English, but for immigrants? I sure as heck know a lot of foreigners living here that have virtually no command of English. Many of them are Asian. But it is definitely not required for citizens to know English. So I don't know if it is legal to discriminate against non-English speaking citizens.

Legal scholars out there? Can you help me?

 

[TragicMonkey]

I don't believe in New Age woo-woo crap.

You could also call it "justice".