Miguel asks a stupid question

[luchog]

If this is so, then why doesn't the SSA catch it when an employer takes out taxes on a fraudulent SSN?

This doesn't apply, because illegal immigrant labourers are not treated as normal employers, there is no SSN used, and the employers do not collect payroll taxes for illegals.

 

[b33fj3rky]

If I were to cite three Italian Americans who've committed crimes, would you claim that Italian Americans should be deported?

Are you claiming that large numbers of Italian "Americans" are here illegally? If you are, then how are they Italian "Americans?"

Of course, these three examples don't exactly extrapolate to the estimated 10+ million all that negatively. The White House mouthpiece Tony Snow notes that several states with high amounts of illegal immigration have actually experienced falling crime rates.

Oh, yeah, that's great. The next time there's an illegal immigrant who either doesn't understand or doesn't respect American standards of basic road safety, and who gets plastered, drives, and kills innocent people, we can go to the families and say, "Well, you know, Tony Snow says several states with high amounts of illegals have experienced falling crimes rates. So cheer up! It's not so bad that Mommy is splattered all over the highway, now is it?"

 

[b33fj3rky]

This applies to having an overdue library book, though. Or of having an expired registration on my car.

If your car registration is expired (or you never had one), you're not legal to drive that car.

If your Green Card, etc., is expired (or you never had one), then you're not legal to work here in America.

 

[b33fj3rky]

It's pretty funny that a place in Georgia named for the Cherokee would have people there telling non-natives they have no right to be there.

What's funny about it?

 

[pgwenthold]

In Chicago it is illegal to rent to drug dealers but not illegal to rent to illegal aliens. Are you concerned about the law here, or only it's inverse?

Absolutely.


Are landlords required to verify that potential renters are not drug dealers?

 

[shecky]

Are you claiming that large numbers of Italian "Americans" are here illegally? If you are, then how are they Italian "Americans?"

No, I'm saying that attributing the flaws of the few to the whole group is a fatal flaw in reason.

Oh, yeah, that's great. The next time there's an illegal immigrant who either doesn't understand or doesn't respect American standards of basic road safety, and who gets plastered, drives, and kills innocent people, we can go to the families and say, "Well, you know, Tony Snow says several states with high amounts of illegals have experienced falling crimes rates. So cheer up! It's not so bad that Mommy is splattered all over the highway, now is it?"

Now you seem to attribute such behaviors to illegal immigrants because they're illegal immigrants. And again you attribute the flaws of the few to flaws in the whole group. Neither of these ideas will stand.

And again, crime rates are not necessarily correlated with the legal status of a person. Illegal immigrants simply don't seem to overwhelmingly be cause offenses against life or property at rates significantly more than might be expected from comparable populations.

 

[Tricky]

What's funny about it?

Funny as in ironic. The US kicked the Cherokee out of Georgia because gold was discovered on their land. This was the beginning of the "Trail of Tears", by the way. Now many US citizens want to make sure that nobody elses has a chance to "steal their gold" by making some money off of the good economy in the US.

The line between comedy and tragedy is very thin, BeefJerky. Unlike your namesake, it is not cut and dried.

 

[b33fj3rky]

Now you seem to attribute such behaviors to illegal immigrants because they're illegal immigrants.

I do, indeed. And I'm right. Much, much more so than legal residents, illegal immigrants are more likely to drive without a license, and drive intoxicated.

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=165672

" In addition to being unlicensed, most illegal alien drivers are uninsured – making the accidents they cause even more injurious. Statewide, more than one-third of California drivers are without insurance, according to the California Department of Insurance. In some low-income and minority neighborhoods, the rate is over 50 percent. In San Jose, for instance, 55 percent of all drivers on the road have no auto insurance. In some parts of Los Angeles, Imperial, San Diego and Alameda counties, the rate reaches as high as 90 percent...
According to surveys conducted by Mothers Against Drunk Driving, Hispanics believe it takes 6-8 drinks to affect driving, while Americans, indoctrinated for years against drunk driving, believe it takes just 2-4 drinks. "

Illegal immigrants simply don't seem to overwhelmingly be cause offenses against life or property at rates significantly more than might be expected from comparable populations.

Yes, they do. Illegal immigrants are much more likely to commit identity theft.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6814673/

"Linda Trevino, who lives in a Chicago suburb, applied for a job last year at a local Target department store, and was denied. The reason? She already worked there -- or rather, her Social Security number already worked there.

Follow-up investigation revealed the same Social Security number had been used to obtain work at 37 other employers, mostly by illegal immigrants trying to satisfy government requirements to get a job.

Trevino is hardly alone. MSNBC.com research and government reports suggest hundreds of thousands of American citizens are in the same spot -- unknowingly lending their identity to illegal immigrants so they can work. And while several government agencies and private corporations sometimes know whose Social Security numbers are being ripped off, they won't notify the victims. That is, until they come after the victims for back taxes or unpaid loans owed by the imposter..."

http://ensign.senate.gov/counties/record.cfm?id=257162

"Identify theft by illegal aliens has created many problems for Americans. Sometimes those problems involve the Internal Revenue Service. For example, Audra has been a stay-at-home mom since 2000. Over the last 3 years, the IRS has accused her of owing $1 million in back taxes. This is a picture of the first letter she received from the IRS saying she owed back taxes. Since that first letter, she has received many more.

Her story is clear. She has not worked in 6 years. Yet the IRS says she owes taxes for working the last three years. What she first thought was a mistake, later became clear. It was a case of identity theft. Her social security number was being used by at least 218 illegal immigrants, mostly in Texas, to obtain jobs..."

 

[Tricky]

Why do you think identity theft is so popular with illegals, BJ? Consider that it might be because it is a great tool for getting a job when a false identiy is required. Suppose we had a guest worker program. Do you think the incidence of identity theft would decline?

 

[b33fj3rky]

The line between comedy and tragedy is very thin, BeefJerky. Unlike your namesake, it is not cut and dried.

Now THAT'S funny.

Funny as in ironic. The US kicked the Cherokee out of Georgia because gold was discovered on their land. This was the beginning of the "Trail of Tears", by the way.

Yeah, living in East TN, I'm quite familiar with the Trail.

It was a horrible thing, but I don't see it being relevant to discussions about the current immigration situation. And bringing up the whole predictable white people aren't *really* from America, are they? bit has little comedy value. The whole point of a joke is, you don't see it coming.

 

[b33fj3rky]

Why do you think identity theft is so popular with illegals, BJ? Consider that it might be because it is a great tool for getting a job when a false identiy is required. Suppose we had a guest worker program. Do you think the incidence of identity theft would decline?

Indeed. And from a very pragmatic perspective, I think a guest worker program may be a good idea.

The problem is, from a moral perspective, it irks me. It seems like if it happened, the gov'mnt would basically be rewarding lawbreakers, and condoning their actions.

 

[Tricky]

Indeed. And from a very pragmatic perspective, I think a guest worker program may be a good idea.

The problem is, from a moral perspective, it irks me. It seems like if it happened, the gov'mnt would basically be rewarding lawbreakers, and condoning their actions.

I think the law should be pragmatic. If a law is stupidly punishing harmless people (for example, the laws against marijuana when booze is a much worse drug) then the laws should be changed.

I know and even agree that the laws we have should be obeyed, but dammit, let's work on these stupid laws that just hurt ourselves.

Legalize guest workers and we will no longer be rewarding lawbreakers. Everyone will benefit. Also, we can start collecting taxes from them instead of having them paid under the table.

 

[Tricky]

Now THAT'S funny.

Thanks. I try to keep my posts interesting.

Yeah, living in East TN, I'm quite familiar with the Trail.

It was a horrible thing, but I don't see it being relevant to discussions about the current immigration situation. And bringing up the whole predictable white people aren't *really* from America, are they? bit has little comedy value. The whole point of a joke is, you don't see it coming.

My point was that "funny" often means "odd" or "against reason". It doesn't mean you laugh. Sometimes people respond to a tragedy by saying "life is funny that way".

But yes, you are correct that the way we mistreated the Amerinds is not the same issue as we face with illegal immigrants. Things have changed. I was only pointing out what Tragic Monkey meant.

Still, I cannot bring myself to blame immigrant workers for looking to find a better life. If we wanted to stop it, we could, easily. We could punish the employers heavily. But we don't do that, because employers are rich and donate to politicians. They know that no amount of public outrage will severely damage their supply of cheap labor. Only a concerted effort at addressing the demand will do that. The supply is a group of people with nothing to lose and no reason to abide by US law. The demanders are almost all US citizens with a great deal to lose by being busted. But they also have power, and as long as they do, lawmakers will never make serious laws to punish employers. Look at the situation today and you will see it is true.

We can build a 300 mile fence, complete with cameras and guards, but we can't make a simple computer database that employers can screen their employees against? Gimme a break. That's total BS.

 

[b33fj3rky]

I think the law should be pragmatic. If a law is stupidly punishing harmless people (for example, the laws against marijuana when booze is a much worse drug) then the laws should be changed.

I know and even agree that the laws we have should be obeyed, but dammit, let's work on these stupid laws that just hurt ourselves.

Legalize guest workers and we will no longer be rewarding lawbreakers. Everyone will benefit. Also, we can start collecting taxes from them instead of having them paid under the table.

Agreed. With 11 million or so illegals already here, we're not going to be able to just round them up and deport them. Not today, not tomorrow, not in 10 years. I don't think there's any good solution, one that will, both morally and pragmatically, satisfy the general American population's outrage about this issue, but I do very much agree with you that it would be better to have the 11 million here become legal so we can get taxes, make them get licenses and insurance when driving, etc, than it would be to continue with the way it is now.

The main obstacle I see to such a program? Americans, especially here in the South, have this mile-wide moralist streak, and telling the 11 million illegals "Fine, you're here anyway; stay a while" just goes against our (often self-defeating) moralist streak. We love to be RIGHT, dammit. We love to thump our Bibles, and salute our flag, and say that we may not be doing the easy thing, but by God we are doing the right thing. (I'm an atheist, but I find that I still have that moralist streak myself. It's just part of the culture, of growing up here, I think.)

If we wanted to stop it, we could, easily. We could punish the employers heavily. But we don't do that, because employers are rich and donate to politicians. They know that no amount of public outrage will severely damage their supply of cheap labor. Only a concerted effort at addressing the demand will do that. The supply is a group of people with nothing to lose and no reason to abide by US law. The demanders are almost all US citizens with a great deal to lose by being busted. But they also have power, and as long as they do, lawmakers will never make serious laws to punish employers. Look at the situation today and you will see it is true.

We can build a 300 mile fence, complete with cameras and guards, but we can't make a simple computer database that employers can screen their employees against? Gimme a break. That's total BS.

I couldn't agree more. The only realistic solution I see on the horizon is if lawyers start finding ways to file Big-Tobacco-style lawsuits against corporations that hire large numbers of illegals, such as this one:

" Associated Press
Oct. 12, 2006 12:26 PM

CHATTANOOGA, Tenn. A federal judge in Chattanooga has granted class action status to a lawsuit that contends Tyson Foods depressed wages by hiring illegal immigrants at eight plants in Tennessee, Alabama, Indiana, Missouri, Texas and Virginia.
Tyson employees' attorney Howard Foster of Chicago today described the ruling as a "very big step," and says he is now seeking damages for thousands of workers at the eight plants."

http://www.alipac.us/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=1581

 

[TragicMonkey]

Yeah, living in East TN, I'm quite familiar with the Trail.

It was a horrible thing, but I don't see it being relevant to discussions about the current immigration situation. And bringing up the whole predictable white people aren't *really* from America, are they? bit has little comedy value. The whole point of a joke is, you don't see it coming.

It wasn't a joke. It's historic karma. This nation was founded on bastards showing up uninvited and grabbing resources from the people already there. Some were nice people. Some were not. But stamping your feet and whining about who's "entitled" to the place or not is like someone complaining that since they broke into the house first, they have more rights to the place than the more recent burglars.

America had it coming. Suck it up and quit complaining. It's to our advantage, anyway. All that nice cheap labor, and booming population growth from both a higher birth rate and the immigration itself. You want to be like Europe, in a population decline? We're a big country, with lots of resources and lots of space. We're not even close to being filled up. And the people with the drive and ambition and guts to come here illegally are a lot more motivated than the slackers who live here already. Let them come! They work!

As for Cherokee County disliking non-natives, well, that's on par with someone holding a Weight Watchers Convention in Hersey, Pennsylvania.

 

[b33fj3rky]

It's historic karma.

I don't believe in New Age woo-woo crap.

 

[Francesca R]

the reason laws like these are being made is because there is such a major impact on the community.

Are you talking about laws against immigration, or new laws that punish those who transact with illegal immigrants? Is there a "major impact on the community" coming from the fact that landlords are not being required by law to police the citizenship of tenants? Or just coming from illegal immigration?

A law to punish landlords is not without logic—I think that it is flawed though. It would encourage discrimination and would invade the privacy of law-abiding individuals in an over-reaching manner.

It wasn't a joke. It's historic karma. This nation was founded on bastards showing up uninvited and grabbing resources from the people already there. Some were nice people. Some were not. But stamping your feet and whining about who's "entitled" to the place or not is like someone complaining that since they broke into the house first, they have more rights to the place than the more recent burglars.

I don't think so. In the case of burglars there is an overarching power (the state) that can declare both of them illegitimate and unentitled. In the case of sovereign governments there is no larger power. I don't think it is valid to argue for rescinding all border controls in all territories that were—at some point in the past—captured by force from people who were already there.

 

[SezMe]

Cool. So demonstrate how "being an illegal immigrant" has a major impact on the community, and I'll listen.

I suspect, though, that you can't.)

Happy to help. Linky. And Linky. And Linky.

All this from just part of the first page of a simple google search. Ain't the internet just a marvel?

 

[WildCat]

Because it doesn't happen. Illegals are paid in cash under the table.

Not always, and it isn't easy to match a SSN:

But the resources employers have to check workers’ documents are unreliable. Four years ago, Temple University researchers studied a pilot project that lets companies use databases from Homeland Security and the SSA to verify employment status. Those databases were found to reject one of every five properly documented applicants.
Some legal experts say firing workers based on no-match letters runs afoul of current law. Marielena Hincapié, program director at the National Immigration Law Center, said that because the final regulation has not been issued, employers who follow it could be sued for discrimination and unfair labor practices.
Indeed, Lopez and another Chicago-area Applebee’s kitchen manager have filed complaints with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, the federal agency charged with rooting out workplace discrimination. The two say they were fired on the basis of national origin.
Tim Bell, executive director of the Chicago Workers Collaborative, said six other Applebee’s kitchen managers fired for mismatches were rehired after the charges and other pressure on the company.
"If you fire people for no-match," Bell told TNS, "we’re going to put your company under the microscope."

Source.

And apparently, it's also illegal to fire someone found using a fake SSN. Nothing like bureaucracy!

 

[WildCat]

It wasn't a joke. It's historic karma. This nation was founded on bastards showing up uninvited and grabbing resources from the people already there.

Let me know when you find a country inhabited only by it's original settlers, who have remained in place ever since they claimed the land from H. Erectus or Neanderthals.