Miguel asks a stupid question

[drkitten]

I think its different because simply being here is the crime for illegal immigrants.

This applies to having an overdue library book, though. Or of having an expired registration on my car.

I'm constantly guilty of having my library book overdue, and have been since I was about six -- but that's hardly gong to keep my landlord from renting to me, is it?

 

[shecky]

Nativist nonsense.

Funny thing is, it's not illegal for an illegal immigrant to buy property, and can/have used Individual Taxpayer Identification Numbers in lieu of SSNs for also doing things such as getting jobs, paying all the usual taxes and deductions. In some ways, illegal immigrants may be propping up some of our entitlement programs by willfully contributing without ever having a chance to collect themselves.

Oddest thing of all, is demonstrating the actual harm of an illegal immigrant earning a living in the US and paying someone rent for the use of their property.

 

[skeptifem]

This applies to having an overdue library book, though. Or of having an expired registration on my car.

I'm constantly guilty of having my library book overdue, and have been since I was about six -- but that's hardly gong to keep my landlord from renting to me, is it?

the reason laws like these are being made is because there is such a major impact on the community. i doubt a library book/expired registration could do as much damage or cost as much to society. its like comparing car theft to a speeding ticket.

plus, you could get the book back or renew your registration, the illegal immigrant would have to leave, getting rid of the landlord/tenet issue in the first place.

Most of the other crimes that get people fired up arent observable when a landlord is showing a renter the property because its not going on constantly. I bet if landlordsknew that a tenet was going to use the place to do illegal things regularily they would refuse to rent to them (in general anyway).

 

[drkitten]

the reason laws like these are being made is because there is such a major impact on the community. i doubt a library book/expired registration could do as much damage or cost as much to society. its like comparing car theft to a speeding ticket.

Cool. So demonstrate how "being an illegal immigrant" has a major impact on the community, and I'll listen.

I suspect, though, that you can't.

For example, merely being an illegal immigrant doensn't damage the economy. (If you're going to suggest that illegals cost more in welfare payments than they give back in sales taxes, I'm going to ask, first, if this is true for all illegals, or just for some of them, and second, where you're getting your numbers. Because so far no credible source has been able to substantiate that claim.)

 

[Mycroft]

Cool. So demonstrate how "being an illegal immigrant" has a major impact on the community, and I'll listen.

I suspect, though, that you can't.

For example, merely being an illegal immigrant doensn't damage the economy. (If you're going to suggest that illegals cost more in welfare payments than they give back in sales taxes, I'm going to ask, first, if this is true for all illegals, or just for some of them, and second, where you're getting your numbers. Because so far no credible source has been able to substantiate that claim.)

If your argument is that our immigration laws should be more lenient so that these people should be able to be here legally then make that argument.

Instead you seem to be arguing that we should make it easier to subvert the law because you disagree with it. I don't see that as a rational solution to any problem.

 

[shecky]

If your argument is that our immigration laws should be more lenient so that these people should be able to be here legally then make that argument.

Instead you seem to be arguing that we should make it easier to subvert the law because you disagree with it. I don't see that as a rational solution to any problem.

Why couldn't both arguments be made?

I personally see nothing wrong with ignoring stupid laws. I find it perfectly reasonable as long as the offense has no actual victim. Perhaps one step to changing stupid law is to ignore it.

 

[Pescado]

Being skeptical about the economic consequences of illegal immigration does not necessarily indicate Drkitten's position on what to do about the matter, in my opinion. Drkitten could have a position on the matter either way, and still be skeptical of the claim that illegal immigrants damage the economy.

Also, not taking action to make it harder for illegal immigrants to rent is not the same thing as making it easier for illegal immigrants to rent.

 

[pgwenthold]

Instead you seem to be arguing that we should make it easier to subvert the law because you disagree with it. I don't see that as a rational solution to any problem.

Since landlords are not currently required to verify citizenship status of any of their residence, how is continuing to not require them to verify citizenship status making anything _easier_?

"Not making it harder to subvert the law" =/= "making it easier"

 

[Crossbow]

But are they?

Are we required by law to turn in a person you know to have used illegal drugs? If you know that your brother is a drug user, are you charged as an accessory if you don't turn him in to the police? If you know that your sister once drove while under the influence, are you required to turn her in?

If the answers to these are "no," then why the separate standard for landlords?

Strictly speaking, one is always required by law to report ever crime they see to the authorities.

However, the authorities also have a certain amount of discretion in just how the apply the power of the state, therefore it would be quite unlikely that they would bother to press charges against one person who did not tell the police that his brother uses drugs, or exceeds the speed limit, or stole a pencil from his workplace, and so on.

Now a drug dealer, on the other hand, is a very serious crime and as such if the land lord, or brother, or sister knew about the activity but did not report it, then they had better have a real good reason for not doing so, or they could be in real trouble. Especially, if they got some material benefit from the drug dealing (such as a rent check).

Whereas illegal immigrants advertise the fact? Nah... Or do we just rely on the fact that the guy is hispanic, and therefore is likely to be illegal? Whoops.

Why should the renter be required to verify that they are not illegal immigrants but not drug dealers? Both are illegal.

I think the verifications you speak of would involve police functions and legal issues which the renters are not able to do.

It would be quite unreasonable to expect a renter to check all of his tenants to see if they are drug dealers or not. Heck! Even the FBI has a great deal of trouble with that, so one cannot expect a renter to do such a thing as well.

As for the work status, the renters do not have the legal authority to require their tenants to show two forms of ID and a valid SSN the same way that employers do. So you cannot reasonably expect the renters to do this sort of work either.

What if it is "don't ask, don't tell"?

Practically speaking, that pretty much how it does work. If the renter has a tenant that is doing something illegal on their property, then often the best thing the renter can do is say something like "Wow! I had no idea that guy was a drug dealer/illegal immigrant officer! If I had, then I would have reported it right away. Honest Injun!"

I sure hope so.

Me too!

 

[WildCat]

This is one problem. Second, the argument that "they are illegal" doesn't seem to apply to other criminals. For example, why can they rent to drug dealers but not illegal immigrants? Both are breaking the law, yet one is targeted and the other is not. Hence, it seems to be targeted to only a specific group of lawbreakers.

There is plenty of good reasons to be concerned about such a law.

In Chicago it is illegal to rent to drug dealers but not illegal to rent to illegal aliens. Are you concerned about the law here, or only it's inverse?

 

[WildCat]

Take the social security number (which is required in order to withdraw taxes etc.) and check it against the information that the Social Security Administration has for that person.

If this is so, then why doesn't the SSA catch it when an employer takes out taxes on a fraudulent SSN?

 

[b33fj3rky]

Oddest thing of all, is demonstrating the actual harm of an illegal immigrant earning a living in the US and paying someone rent for the use of their property.

Illegal Alien Charged In Traffic Death To Be Deported
Family Of Victim Favored Allowing Her To Stay In U.S.
posted August 7, 2006

Vitalina Bautista Vargas has tearful farewell with husband, right. Click to enlarge.
An illegal alien charged with running into a house on 45th Street and causing the death of a 91-year-old woman will be deported.

http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_90543.asp

* * *

INVASION USA
Another drunk illegal
kills 3 more Americans
Suspect had pleaded guilty last year
to count of driving without a license

Three people – two North Carolina State University students and a 16-year-old – have been killed by an illegal alien, who allegedly was driving drunk, and already had a record of crime in the United States.

Authorities say Pastor Rios Sanchez, 55, is expected back in a North Carolina court on Nov. 15 on charges he killed Helen Meghan Hughes, 22, of Summerville, S.C., Jennifer Carter, 18, of Jacksonville, N.C., and Hughes' stepbrother, 16-year-old Ben Leonard.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52875

* * *

INVASION USA
'12-pack' illegal
in fatal car crash
Driver charged with vehicular homicide, tampering
with evidence – observed throwing beer into woods
Posted: November 12, 2006
1:00 a.m. Eastern

Jose Trejo Encino
When Jose Trejo Encino lost control of his 1996 Pontiac Grand Prix late one night last month in Madison County, Tenn., killing one of his passengers and injuring another, he at least had the presence of mind to throw the cans of beer he had from the car into the woods before the police arrived, according to affidavits entered in court from witnesses.

Encino, 27, who admitted to deputies at the scene "to drinking a 12-pack of beer earlier in the night," is now facing charges of vehicular homicide and tampering with evidence after the one-car accident that killed Sergio Lopez, 18, and injured Hugo Trejo, 20. An administrative hold was also placed on Encino this week after an agent for the U.S. Department of Immigration and Customs Enforcement determined the suspect was in the U.S. illegally. He is being held on $150,000 bond.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52913

* * *

Here in America, we already have plenty of drunken, unlicensed drivers on the roads. We don't need to import more from Mexico.

 

[Fitter]

The day there are roving gangs of brownshirts painting "Achtung Mexicano" on Hispanic-owned store fronts, and even legal Hispanics are forced to wear armbands of the Mexican flag, then I'll reconsider.

Then it's too late.

 

[Tricky]

If this is so, then why doesn't the SSA catch it when an employer takes out taxes on a fraudulent SSN?

Because it doesn't happen. Illegals are paid in cash under the table. The way it usually works is that the "reputable" business pays a subcontractor to provide labor, but that subcontractor (usually a front for illegals) takes their check, cashes it and pays the workers in cash. Most "maids" and "lawn care" people are paid in cash too. As I recall, some congressperson recently got booted for just this.

 

[shecky]

If I were to cite three Italian Americans who've committed crimes, would you claim that Italian Americans should be deported?

Of course, these three examples don't exactly extrapolate to the estimated 10+ million all that negatively. The White House mouthpiece Tony Snow notes that several states with high amounts of illegal immigration have actually experienced falling crime rates.

 

[TragicMonkey]

It's pretty funny that a place in Georgia named for the Cherokee would have people there telling non-natives they have no right to be there.

 

[shecky]

Because it doesn't happen. Illegals are paid in cash under the table. The way it usually works is that the "reputable" business pays a subcontractor to provide labor, but that subcontractor (usually a front for illegals) takes their check, cashes it and pays the workers in cash. Most "maids" and "lawn care" people are paid in cash too. As I recall, some congressperson recently got booted for just this.

This isn't always the case. In fact, some estimates I've seen are that about 60% do in fact pay all the applicable payroll deductions working "regular" jobs.

Under the table jobs certainly exist. However, they tend to be concentrated in temporary and/or cash based businesses, and would likely remain under the table even if occupied by citizens as the rigamarole of doing the witholding stuff isn't usually worth the hassle under such conditions.

 

[skeptifem]

someone called my coworker today asking if he needed to be legal to work at this company... wtf?

 

[skeptifem]

Because it doesn't happen. Illegals are paid in cash under the table. The way it usually works is that the "reputable" business pays a subcontractor to provide labor, but that subcontractor (usually a front for illegals) takes their check, cashes it and pays the workers in cash. Most "maids" and "lawn care" people are paid in cash too. As I recall, some congressperson recently got booted for just this.

actually yeah, people do get caught when using fraudulent ssn's when they file. the employer says 'i had no idea!' and the illegal person may/may not get caught, the person who had their ssn stolen has to go through a lot of crap to prove who they are, and then the whole cycle repeats itself.

But hey, if I was using a false ssn on my employment papers I could claim whatever I wanted to in order to keep as much of the money as possible...

 

[luchog]

This applies to having an overdue library book, though. Or of having an expired registration on my car.

I'm constantly guilty of having my library book overdue, and have been since I was about six -- but that's hardly gong to keep my landlord from renting to me, is it?

Those are not crimes. Or if they are, you live in an immensely f**ked up area. Expired registration is a civil infraction, and overdue library book isn't an infraction of any sort (although if you never return it you may be arguably guilty of theft).