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Michelle Bachmann could be our next president.

Obama lies plenty:

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/barack-obama/

Obama doesn't lie with the regularity of Bachmann, but nearly a third of his statements are rated "barely true," "false," or "pants on fire" (over 85% of Bachmann's statements fall under the same categories).
That compares favorably with most politicians. John Boehner is over 50% in the "bottom three" catagories, as is Sarah Palin. One of the best is actually Ron Paul, at well over 70% in the top half.

A lot of it may have to do with how many statements are evaluated though. Obama has far more entries than almost anyone else. Romney and Cheney are both fairly high, but also with fewer reports.
 
Maybe AlBell didn't provide them because there are so many...


And which, if any, of these do you consider significant?

I am not going to click on naked links. I am not going to wade through long lists to try to figure out what point someone is trying to make. If someone on a skeptical forum has a point worth making, they should make it. The failure to do so too often indicates there was not a point worth making.

In this case, if you or AlBell feels Barack Obama makes significant lies:

(a) quote the statement he made;
(b) explain briefly how this is contrary to the facts;
(c) provide a link to a primary source for the statement so the statement can be seen in context.

If someone has made a significant lie, those 3 things should be easy to do.

That is the same standard I would want to see upheld if someone were calling Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann, or anyone else a frequent liar. If there are good examples, skeptics should provide the examples simply and clearly.

If you have good examples, it's not that hard. Which examples in the list you provided do you feel are worth the time to present in that fashion?
 
sorry, but i miss your point.
are you saying that all of those statements are false?

Yes, they are all false. I'm not going to explain them all since PolitiFact does an excellent job of detailing the evidence.

-Bri
 
That compares favorably with most politicians. John Boehner is over 50% in the "bottom three" catagories, as is Sarah Palin. One of the best is actually Ron Paul, at well over 70% in the top half.

A lot of it may have to do with how many statements are evaluated though. Obama has far more entries than almost anyone else. Romney and Cheney are both fairly high, but also with fewer reports.

True. I'm not equating Bachmann and Obama. I'm just saying that there are plenty of exmples of Obama lying, and even perpetuating the same lie multiple times after it has already been reported as a lie.

-Bri
 
Yes, they are all false. I'm not going to explain them all since PolitiFact does an excellent job of detailing the evidence.

-Bri

really?

just one example:
Preventive care "saves money."
how is this a lie?
do you own a car?
is it cheaper to change oil regularly or replace the engine periodically?
is it cheaper to adjust diet to avoid diabetes, or treat diabeties?
 
And which, if any, of these do you consider significant?

I'm interested -- what are your criteria for what lies are "significant" and what lies aren't "significant?"

I am not going to click on naked links.

They weren't links -- they were a list of false statements made by Obama. Seems pretty lazy of you to refuse to read the evidence that PolitiFact has laid out very clearly. Just go to PolitiFact and do some reading if you're interested in the evidence. If you're not interested, so be it. Like you said yourself "[t]here are some people who seem more interested in scoring debate points than in discerning what is true."

-Bri
 
really?

just one example:
Preventive care "saves money."
how is this a lie?
do you own a car?
is it cheaper to change oil regularly or replace the engine periodically?
is it cheaper to adjust diet to avoid diabetes, or treat diabeties?

While it seems intuitive that preventive care would save money overall, the evidence suggests otherwise:

[Preventive care] may make sense and save lives, but does it save money? Experts say no.

The head of the Congressional Budget Office, a nonpartisan group that does all the number-crunching for Congress, has said this isn't the case, despite claims from many Democrats to the contrary.

"The evidence suggests that for most preventive services, expanded utilization leads to higher, not lower, medical spending overall," CBO director Douglas Elmendorf wrote in an Aug. 7 letter to Rep. Nathan Deal, the top Republican on a congressional subcommittee involved in the debate.

Elmendorf explained that, while the cost of a simple test might be cheap for each individual, the cumulative cost of many tests could be quite expensive:

"But when analyzing the effects of preventive care on total spending for health care, it is important to recognize that doctors do not know beforehand which patients are going to develop costly illnesses. To avert one case of acute illness, it is usually necessary to provide preventive care to many patients, most of whom would not have suffered that illness anyway. . . Preventive care can have the largest benefits relative to costs when it is targeted at people who are most likely to suffer from a particular medical problem; however, such targeting can be difficult because preventive services are generally provided to patients who have the potential to contract a given disease but have not yet shown symptoms of having it."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...a-says-preventive-care-saves-money-it-doesnt/

ETA: Here's a Washington Post article on the topic:

Reform proponents repeat this like a mantra. Because it seems so intuitive, it has become conventional wisdom. But like most conventional wisdom, it is wrong. Overall, preventive care increases medical costs.

...

How can that be? If you prevent somebody from getting a heart attack, aren't you necessarily saving money? The fallacy here is confusing the individual with society. For the individual, catching something early generally reduces later spending for that condition. But, explains Elmendorf, we don't know in advance which patients are going to develop costly illnesses. To avert one case, "it is usually necessary to provide preventive care to many patients, most of whom would not have suffered that illness anyway." And this costs society money that would not have been spent otherwise.

Think of it this way. Assume that a screening test for disease X costs $500 and finding it early averts $10,000 of costly treatment at a later stage. Are you saving money? Well, if one in 10 of those who are screened tests positive, society is saving $5,000. But if only one in 100 would get that disease, society is shelling out $40,000 more than it would without the preventive care.

...a rigorous study in the journal Circulation found that for cardiovascular diseases and diabetes, "if all the recommended prevention activities were applied with 100 percent success," the prevention would cost almost 10 times as much as the savings, increasing the country's total medical bill by 162 percent. That's because prevention applied to large populations is very expensive, as shown by another report Elmendorf cites, a definitive review in the New England Journal of Medicine of hundreds of studies that found that more than 80 percent of preventive measures added to medical costs.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/13/AR2009081302898.html

-Bri
 
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nonsense.

Do you have evidence that supports your claim?

A review in the New England Journal of Medicine of hundreds of studies which found that more than 80 percent of preventive measures added to medical costs seems to be pretty strong evidence against you:

Although some preventive measures do save money, the vast majority reviewed in the health economics literature do not.​

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0708558

ETA: Oops! JohnnyG beat me to it!

ETAA: It should also be pointed out that Republicans have also perpetuated this myth, and there are other reasons for preventive care besides cost savings.

-Bri
 
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Very carefully clipped to make it appear that he was talking about gays being barbarians. In fact, he was talking about children being barbarians who need to be educated and disciplined.
I was focused more on the "curing gays" religious BS, which I find to be the utmost reprehensible. Looking back on the link, you are correct that they were focusing more on something else.
 
Yes, they are all false. I'm not going to explain them all since PolitiFact does an excellent job of detailing the evidence.


Obviously, it's your choice. As a skeptic, I would prefer to see you present checkable examples which you think demonstrate that Barack Obama lies frequently. But you are perfectly free to say instead that there is no need for you to do so because a source you consider an authority says so (and if anyone disagrees they should go read what that source says for themselves).

The latter choice is quite popular. Don't you get tired of conspiracy theorists and paranormalists who, instead of presenting the evidence clearly, will instead insist you watch David Ray Griffin's video (because he does an excellent job of detailing the evidence and you'll find all you need to know in the video), or to read Kenneth Ring's book on near death experiences (because he does an excellent job of detailing the evidence and you'll find all you need to know in the book)?

I know I do. And that's why I make a habit out of refusing to click naked links, refusing to watch videos, refusing to wade through books, unless the person presenting the link or video or book as evidence will take the time and effort to state clearly what it is in the link/video/book that they think is good evidence for their point.

If more people learned to present the evidence in support of their point clearly, rather than waving around videos, books, and links as if they were magic, it would be a lot easier to examine evidence critically and make good judgments about what is true and what isn't.

And if we'd like others (such as paranormalists and conspiracy theorists) to do this, a good first step is to start doing it ourselves.
 
Nova Land said:
I am not going to click on naked links.


They weren't links -- they were a list of false statements made by Obama.


I thought what I wrote was fairly clear, but obviously it wasn't. Let me post it again for you, then try to explain it more clearly.

I am not going to click on naked links. I am not going to wade through long lists to try to figure out what point someone is trying to make. If someone on a skeptical forum has a point worth making, they should make it. The failure to do so too often indicates there was not a point worth making.

In this case, if you or AlBell feels Barack Obama makes significant lies:

(a) quote the statement he made;
(b) explain briefly how this is contrary to the facts;
(c) provide a link to a primary source for the statement so the statement can be seen in context...


Do you see the middle paragraph, in which I refer to you and AlBell? My first post was a response to AlBell (who simply posted a link). My second post in this thread was a response to you (who simply posted a list). The quoted post is a continuation of the point I made in both those posts.

You quoted one sentence ("I am not going to click on naked links.") But there are actually two sentences. The first sentence, which you quoted, refers to AlBell; the second one, which you apparently missed, refers to you.

AlBell posted a naked link. I am not going to click naked links.

You posted a long list of statements from that link, with no attempt to explain which of these you consider to be significant lies on Obama's part or how they are lies. I am not going to wade through the list to see which if any of these are significant lies.

I hope that's clearer now.

Seems pretty lazy of you to refuse to read the evidence that PolitiFact has laid out very clearly.


Yes. I do not have unlimited time. Most people don't. Therefore I am not going to go digging today to see if there is a worthwhile example at the source AlBell linked to (but didn't feel was worth his effort to actually provide a clear example from) and which you are willing to copy and paste a long list from (but didn't feel it was worth your effort to actually provide a clear example from).

If PolitiFact has laid out the examples clearly, it should not be hard for you to summarize a few. I don't understand why you are so reluctant to do so -- but I do know that refusing to do so is a bad practice which sets a bad example for others.
 
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What about this study in the New England Journal of Medicine...
That's a misleading cherry pick you quoted.

Preventable causes of death, such as tobacco smoking, poor diet and physical inactivity, and misuse of alcohol have been estimated to be responsible for 900,000 deaths annually — nearly 40% of total yearly mortality in the United States.1 Moreover, some of the measures identified by the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force, such as counseling adults to quit smoking, screening for colorectal cancer, and providing influenza vaccination, reduce mortality either at low cost or at a cost savings.2
The change in smoking habits in the US has had a tremendous impact on health care costs. And it isn't just lung cancer. COPD and emphysema are chronic health problems caused by smoking also had a huge cost in the system. Helmuts, seat belts, safer autos, smoke alarm and water safety campaigns all need to be considered.

For example, screening costs will exceed the savings from avoided treatment in cases in which only a very small fraction of the population would have become ill in the absence of preventive measures.
This is saying we need to be selective about mass screening, not that screening doesn't save health care dollars. That is a well known principle and it is frequently considered. How frequent should pap smears be, at what age should mammograms start, who should get flu vaccinations, recommendations for these measures always consider cost benefit including the costs of false positive test results that require needless follow up. The review is pointing out what we already know. Why else would the cost benefit analyses have been done in the first place.

Some preventive measures save money, while others do not, although they may still be worthwhile because they confer substantial health benefits relative to their cost.
In addition, the review you've cited doesn't address whether the results of the C/B analyses were used to change recommendations of the preventative measures that were found to not be cost effective.


Our findings suggest that the broad generalizations made by many presidential candidates can be misleading.
What else is new? :rolleyes:

You are mis-reading this review. It is not saying prevention doesn't save money. It is only saying the politicians are exaggerating and oversimplifying the medical economics.
 
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You posted a long list of statements from that link, with no attempt to explain which of these you consider to be significant lies on Obama's part or how they are lies. I am not going to wade through the list to see which if any of these are significant lies.

You you understand that the list I posted was quoted from the source, right? I didn't just post a link to the site and tell you to look up everything related to Obama. The list itself is evidence that Obama has made a large number of false statements according to PolitiFact, which was my point.

Which of these statements represent "significant lies" is irrelevant to my point, and besides you have yet to define what you mean by "significant" as it pertains to lies. As to why they are false, you can look them all up on PolitiFact yourself. I'm certainly not going to cut and paste every article here.

But I agree with you generally that it's nice if the person making a claim posts at least a relevant snippet from the source so that you don't have to read the original source. Which is exactly what I did. I took the time to cut and paste the whole list of "pants on fire" and "false" statements from PolitiFact in support of my point.

Yes. I do not have unlimited time. Most people don't. Therefore I am not going to go digging today to see if there is a worthwhile example at the source AlBell linked to (but didn't feel was worth his effort to actually provide a clear example from) and which you are willing to copy and paste a long list from (but didn't feel it was worth your effort to actually provide a clear example from).

I provided more details concerning one of the statements to bikerdruid. If there's a particular statement there that you feel isn't false, you should look it up on PolitiFact. The articles are short and to the point -- it wouldn't take you that long.

-Bri
 
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You are mis-reading this review. It is not saying prevention doesn't save money. It is only saying the politicians are exaggerating and oversimplifying the medical economics.

Well, it's saying that the vast majority of preventive care doesn't save money, and that if the only goal were to save money we'd have to limit preventive care to the minority of procedures that do save money. In particular, the widespread increase in preventive care that Obama and other politicians have suggested would save money overall wouldn't actually save money overall.

-Bri
 
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That's a misleading cherry pick you quoted.
I think it sums up the point being discussed here rather nicely. The blanket statement that "PM saves money" is not supported by evidence.

The change in smoking habits in the US has had a tremendous impact on health care costs. And it isn't just lung cancer. COPD and emphysema are chronic health problems caused by smoking also had a huge cost in the system. Helmuts, seat belts, safer autos, smoke alarm and water safety campaigns all need to be considered.
In the letters tab for the article you will find a similar comment in a letter to the authors, the authors responded by saying "...our analysis of 1500 comparisons described in 599 articles drawn from the Tufts Medical Center Cost-Effectiveness Analysis Registry (www.cearegistry.org) did in fact include a number of community-based interventions."

You are mis-reading this review. It is not saying prevention doesn't save money. It is only saying the politicians are exaggerating and oversimplifying the medical economics.
I think you are mis-reading the article. It clearly concludes that while some prevention saves money, the vast majority do not. That is why the blanket claims by politicians that "PM saves money" are incorrect.

The rest of your post seems to be aimed at an argument I never made.
 
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