Michael Moore in trouble?

[Civilized Worm]

Hmmm...

I grew up in a small town about 20 miles east of Portland, Oregon. If I were to tell people I grew up there I wouldn't consider it a lie, I would just consider it giving the short version.

However if I were to make a film of Portland and told people I grew up there, that would be a lie. If you're making a film about it, you're not giving the short version.

Perhaps. I just think it's an incredibly trivial thing to criticise him for when there are some many other thing to focus on.

You can't possibly be serious. Are you actually comparing Michael Moore to Rosa Parks?

This is insane.

No, I am comparing their <i>actions</i>. Intentionally breaking an unjust law does not make one a "flaming fat idiot". (Although you could argue that that description is accurate for other reasons, and I would probably agree)

rosa parks didnt have to make up lies and decieve people in order to gain support for her cause.

That's why I am only comparing them in this one respect.

 

[steverino]

Excellent point--Moore is a fatty! At last we are getting to substantive issues. Well played.

Thank you! I took my cues from you Rush Limbaugh-bashers who bring up his (former) weight issue every chance you get.

 

[jimtron]

Thank you! I took my cues from you Rush Limbaugh-bashers who bring up his (former) weight issue every chance you get.

I realize you probably meant the collective "you," but I don't recall ever commenting on Limbaugh's girth. I find it more satisfying and effective to discuss real issues rather than appearances.

 

[skeptifem]

But MM surely knows what Flint was like. His family worked there, the plant had a huge impact on the whole area.

I asked for evidence of that. He grew up in davison. If it was such a big deal to them you could present evidence about davison, not flint.

Why do you keep missing the point about the plant being so dominating in the society?

because you failed to provide evidence of problems in davison.

I provided evidence that the closing of the plant meant serious economic problems for the whole area.

it said 'flint and other cities', it mentions davison no where.

Listen, I grew up in a city that had a company that employed over half the town, and it closed. Being middle class to begin with made it not such a big deal because the majority of citizens already had college educations and marketable job skills, and ended up commuting to work instead of falling into poverty.

that seems to be the trend near flint as well, and since you wont provide any evidence i went looking for myself. I even used the same source as you did. from the wikipedia article on flint:

The city has seen a major decline while its suburbs have flourished. Outlying towns such as Grand Blanc and Swartz Creek have seen significant growth and development as bedroom communities. Many professionals who work in the Metro Detroit area have moved outward due to lower taxes, lower housing costs and larger lot sizes. Numerous residential subdivisions have been built in recent years to meet this demand.

and no, this doesnt mention davison specifically, so i went looking for more information.
and the wikipedia article on davison:

The median income for a household in the city was $37,482, and the median income for a family was $51,925.

hardly seems to be in as poor of shape as flint.

heres the earnings information for flint

The median income for a household in the city was $28,015, and the median income for a family was $31,424.

now will you admit that what you have said is nonsense?

You are not saying that when a plant that size closes, it has no impact on other people than those who were directly employed there, then?

you seem incapable of reading and addressing what I wrote, and keep trying to ignore this part, so I guess I will post it again.

No, you were saying i was 'bitching' about how MM decided to make his films, and I was saying that I am certainly going to bitch about deceitful statements presented as fact, and then i provided an example of that. it was the woman with her weird rabbit business being represented as someone who is poor because of the plant closing when in fact she was poor because her husband died over a decade before, and posted a link providing evidence of that. Now tell me why I shouldnt think that its wrong for him to lie/misrepresent events and present them as fact, instead of throwing an unrelated question my way.

No, why don't we stick to what is discussed in this thread, namely MM and his current film?

because this hasnt been resolved yet.

What, in his current film about Cuba is so bad? Where does he lie?

I havent seen it and I dont know, which is why I have been discussing his other films.

 

[skeptifem]

I haven't noticed a precise quote of Moore's purported lie. Nor am I sure what you mean when you put lying in quotes*. That said, given the fact that Moore was born in Flint, went to college in Flint, worked in Flint, parents worked in Flint, and he grew up in a dinky town (population 5000 today, who knows what it was in the 1950's) that is essentially a suburb of Flint (population 124,000), to say that Moore lied by claiming he grew up in Flint takes hyper-semantic inanity to a surreal extreme.

And that's not even counting the additional information in the link that Dann posted.

* I suspect these comments should be directed at nails3jesus0 and not you.

(For the record, I'm not a fan of Moore or his films.)[/quote]

i am finding it very hard to find direct quotes, i did find this letter that MM wrote on his website, entitled 'about flint'. here are some quotes.

How much more can my hometown take? How much more do the people we love have to suffer? How much? How much??

Isn't it enough that my wife and I and tens of thousands of others who love our home -- love it more than any of you will ever know -- have had to leave Flint in the past 20 years to find work far from family and friends?

he goes on to talk about a shooting in beecher township and say that the school officials who said 'this isnt flint, this is beecher township' are in the 'pockets' of gm executives and the government. and how he is dissapointed that 'even black officials' would do this.

 

[varwoche]

He grew up in davison.

Earth paging the alternate universe from where nails3jesus0 posts. (a universe where jesus isn't very astute) To repeat/expand...

Moore was born in Flint, went to college in Flint, worked in Flint, parents worked in Flint, and he grew up in a dinky town (population 5000 today, who knows what it was in the 1950's) that is a suburb of Flint (population 124,000). To say that Moore lied by claiming he grew up in Flint takes hyper-semantic inanity to a surreal extreme, even for jref, and only diminishes whatever other points you may be trying to make.

What's really funny is that even the hyper-semantics work against your goofy assertion, seeing as being born is part of growing up, and going to college is part of growing up.

 

[Architect]

I am minded of CTers, who focus upon de minimus inconsistencies in the "official" accounts of 911 as if these might undermine the whole NIST report.

I was born in the Western Isles of Scotland but only lived there until I was 5. Nevertheless I describe myself as an islander or as a Gael. In what way is this incorrect?

 

[skeptifem]

Earth paging the alternate universe from where nails3jesus0 posts. (a universe where jesus isn't very astute) To repeat/expand...

Moore was born in Flint, went to college in Flint, worked in Flint, parents worked in Flint, and he grew up in a dinky town (population 5000 today, who knows what it was in the 1950's) that is a suburb of Flint (population 124,000). To say that Moore lied by claiming he grew up in Flint takes hyper-semantic inanity to a surreal extreme, even for jref, and only diminishes whatever other points you may be trying to make.

What's really funny is that even the hyper-semantics work against your goofy assertion, seeing as being born is part of growing up, and going to college is part of growing up.

funny that you dont have to live somewhere in order to have grown up there. I guess I grew up in denver, despite not having ever lived there as a child or adolescent. but my dad worked there while i was a kid. and i worked and went to school there after i turned 18. the truth is I only ever saw denver when we drove through it to visit my grandparents at christmas. I would definatley feel like a liar if I made a film about some event in denver and said i was personally touched by it because I 'grew up there as a child'.

edit:

you know, you quoted something that was in response to someone saying 'so what if he didnt grow up there, the plant closing had a huge impact on everything in the area'. I posted evidence showing the opposite, so please dont harp on me for addressing the EXACT SAME POINT YOU ARE MAKING. please read the rest of the post before quoting me and making the exact same argument i was addressing.

and no, its not a HUGE deal, but i personally think that if you are making a documentary its important to be as truthful as possible, and this is just one small piece of the many deceptions in roger&me, ive posted about other things wrong with the film but no one has challeneged them- not as much as this particular point anyway.

 

[jimtron]

May I humbly make a request? Let's agree to disagree regarding the "growing up in Flint" issue, unless someone comes forth with new evidence or arguments. I think both sides of this argument have been stated repeatedly.

Or maybe someone could start a new thread regarding the "growing up in Flint issue."

 

[Mycroft]

Perhaps. I just think it's an incredibly trivial thing to criticise him for when there are some many other thing to focus on.

I agree, but it's not the only thing Moore is criticized for.

I am minded of CTers, who focus upon de minimus inconsistencies in the "official" accounts of 911 as if these might undermine the whole NIST report.

Oh please.

Nobody is saying Moore is bad because he lied about growing up in Flint. Rather this is one example among many of half-truths and distortions Moore builds his movies around. This issue has gotten a lot of play in this thread because it's the issue defenders of Moore have chosen.

 

[Dorian Gray]

Man, how many times are suburbs of a large city referred to as that city on the news (other than local). We're always hearing about such-and-such happening in LA, but is it really in LA, or in one of the suburbs?

When I'm talking about where my brothers live, I refer to 'Denver' and 'Phoenix', not 'Aurora' and 'Chandler'. I say my mom lives in Oklahoma City, not Midwest City. I say my dad lives in Stuart, because there aren't any major cities close by. You know where Stuart is, right? No, you don't. Here's a hint: an hour north of West Palm Beach.

The thing about this is that Moore wasn't trying to snow anyone about where he lived and how Flint affected him. The suburb and the big city were both about the same. Contrast this with Bill O'Reilly saying he grew up in Leavittown. He did this to try to paint himself as a blue collar guy, working class. He grew up in some ritzy town near there (I forget the name). He has an ulterior motive by claiming Leavittown as his hometown. I don't think Michael Moore has an ulterior motive by claiming Flint as his hometown. It certainly seems as though Moore spent a huge portion of his early life in, around, and being affected by Flint.

Why don't you pick on his weight, or his vision, or his fashion sense?

 

[steverino]

I say my dad lives in Stuart, because there aren't any major cities close by. You know where Stuart is, right? No, you don't.

I do. I do. My uncle, Stuart, works in Stuart, Florida. That's how I remember.

 

[CFLarsen]

nails3jesus0,

I think I'll just refer you to your own words:

funny that you dont have to live somewhere in order to have grown up there.

That's. Exactly. It.

Man, how many times are suburbs of a large city referred to as that city on the news (other than local). We're always hearing about such-and-such happening in LA, but is it really in LA, or in one of the suburbs?

When I'm talking about where my brothers live, I refer to 'Denver' and 'Phoenix', not 'Aurora' and 'Chandler'. I say my mom lives in Oklahoma City, not Midwest City. I say my dad lives in Stuart, because there aren't any major cities close by. You know where Stuart is, right? No, you don't. Here's a hint: an hour north of West Palm Beach.

Where the hell is West Palm Beach? Oh, in Florida? That's to the East.....

(Had you said "Ft. Lauderdale", it would have made more sense to more people. Which is what Moore went for.)

The thing about this is that Moore wasn't trying to snow anyone about where he lived and how Flint affected him. The suburb and the big city were both about the same. Contrast this with Bill O'Reilly saying he grew up in Leavittown. He did this to try to paint himself as a blue collar guy, working class. He grew up in some ritzy town near there (I forget the name). He has an ulterior motive by claiming Leavittown as his hometown. I don't think Michael Moore has an ulterior motive by claiming Flint as his hometown. It certainly seems as though Moore spent a huge portion of his early life in, around, and being affected by Flint.

Why don't you pick on his weight, or his vision, or his fashion sense?

That's next. Anything other than discuss the actual issue.

 

[gtc]

That's next. Anything other than discuss the actual issue.

Wow your psychic now. Have you applied for the million yet?

 

[qayak]

rosa parks didnt have to make up lies and decieve people in order to gain support for her cause.

Yes she did. Rosa Parks was a plant. She was a long time member of the civil rights movement and knew all the leaders personally, including MLK. There was another woman selected to be the person on the bus but that woman was not married and she became pregnant. The leaders knew there would be no sympathy for an unwed mother in such a religiously intolerant time and area. They scraped the idea.

From her own memoirs: “I kept thinking about my mother and my grandparents and how strong they were. I knew that there was a possibility of being mistreated, but an opportunity was being given me to do what I had asked of others.” (Bolding mine)

I'm not saying what she did wasn't great, but it was a well planned operation.

 

[President Bush]

Rosa Parks was a plant.

You, too? Laura has an American Beauty she calls Rosa Parks.

And she has a philodendron that she named Cedric the Entertainer.

 

[aries]

Let's try another perspective on this...

When I talk some of my co-workers at work, I tell them that my big sister lives in Copenhagen. (but actually she lives in a little town near Copenhagen).
Have I lied ??

I once had a girl-friend who was born near a bigger town (avout 10 miles), and told veryone that she came from the town, since no-one actually had heard of the very small village she was born. Did she lie ?

Michael M., as I see it, knows about Flint, and the hardship of these families that became un-employed when GM decided to close the auto plant in Flint, Michigan. In Denmark, we also big firms where the entire town works. The best known firm, internationally, is probably LEGO(tm) where about half the town, in which LEGO is situated, works. If LEGO where to shut down, it would indeed be a disaster...

Many Danish town have had ship-yards that had to be closed where many many thousands of workers --- eh -- worked. This too, had a very devastating effect on the economy of these towns. It understandable, therefore, that the closing of the auto plant Flint, Michigan, did the same to this place...

 

[Megalodon]

Pay no attention to the fact that those people were in need of medical help... Moore is fat!

And he took them to Cuba... He's a fat commie!

And the movie is not out, but we know that it's packed with lies and Castro-coddling!

And he's fat!

And he's shouting that he's being persecuted without actually saying it (fat sleazy bastard)!

The US government is giving the case a timely and perfectly proportionate attention. It's him who's fat!

Have i mentioned that he has a weight problem?

 

[dann]

Have i mentioned that he has a weight problem?

Yes, but you should emphasize that the doesn't have it in Flint!
And could you please post a photo of the fatso surrounded by malnourished Cubans!?

 

[dann]

PS He should be eating when the photo was shot!