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Michael Moore in trouble?

nails3jesus0 said:
because, saying 'i grew up in flint' when you didnt is a lie. its pretty friggin simple.
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When your family is that tightly connected to a huge plant, it is fair to say he grew up in Flint. You disagree.

nails3jesus0 said:
evidence? everything i read says his hometown is/was a white collar, middle class, suburban place with better economic standing than flint.
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Whoa, whoa. We are talking about the whole area, not just his hometown.

Since the late 1960s, Flint has suffered from disinvestment, deindustrialization, and depopulation. Initially, this took the form of the "white flight" that afflicted many American towns and cities, but the decline was exacerbated by the 1973 oil crisis and subsequent collapse of the U.S. auto industry. In the 1980s, the rate of deindustrialization accelerated with local GM employment falling from a 1978 high of 80,000 to under 23,000 by the late 1990s.
Source
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When you remove a plant of that size, it will have tremendous effect on everyone in the area.

nails3jesus0 said:
I certainly should bitch about MM presenting deliberatley misleading statements as fact. Like the woman who sold bunnies for food or pets. it was implied she got screwed by the closing of the plant, but it had nothing to do with that. see the news article i quoted.
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Let me see if I understand you correctly.

You are saying that when a plant that size closes, it has no impact on other people than those who were directly employed there?

nails3jesus0 said:
his films are all filled with multiple lies or deceptions, soooo it invalidates his point because he doesnt have real evidence to back up his assertions.
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What does he assert in this movie?
 
CFLarsen said:
When your family is that tightly connected to a huge plant, it is fair to say he grew up in Flint. You disagree.
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my dad worked in denver, while i grew up in a middle class suburban town not too far away. what micheal moore is doing is equal to me claiming to have street cred by saying i grew up in the city when i did no such thing. I had no idea what denver was like because i didnt live there.

this is insanley silly. you are saying its 'fair' to say he grew up in flint when he did not??? He either grew up there, or didnt. its a very simple concept.

Whoa, whoa. We are talking about the whole area, not just his hometown.

When you remove a plant of that size, it will have tremendous effect on everyone in the area.
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I have asked you for evidence of that but youve only provided evidence that flint had problems. that isnt evidence of what you are asserting.


Let me see if I understand you correctly.

You are saying that when a plant that size closes, it has no impact on other people than those who were directly employed there?
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No, you were saying i was 'bitching' about how MM decided to make his films, and I was saying that I am certainly going to bitch about deceitful statements presented as fact, and then i provided an example of that. it was the woman with her weird rabbit business being represented as someone who is poor because of the plant closing when in fact she was poor because her husband died over a decade before, and posted a link providing evidence of that. Now tell me why I shouldnt think that its wrong for him to lie/misrepresent events and present them as fact, instead of throwing an unrelated question my way.



What does he assert in this movie?
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I said 'all his movies' have assertions that remain unsupported because of deciet. but one good example we have going is that he said he grew up in flint, when no such thing occured. lets stick to that for now.
 
nails3jesus0 said:
my dad worked in denver, while i grew up in a middle class suburban town not too far away. what micheal moore is doing is equal to me claiming to have street cred by saying i grew up in the city when i did no such thing. I had no idea what denver was like because i didnt live there.
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But MM surely knows what Flint was like. His family worked there, the plant had a huge impact on the whole area.

nails3jesus0 said:
this is insanley silly. you are saying its 'fair' to say he grew up in flint when he did not??? He either grew up there, or didnt. its a very simple concept.
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Why do you keep missing the point about the plant being so dominating in the society?

nails3jesus0 said:
I have asked you for evidence of that but youve only provided evidence that flint had problems. that isnt evidence of what you are asserting.
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I provided evidence that the closing of the plant meant serious economic problems for the whole area.

nails3jesus0 said:
No, you were saying i was 'bitching' about how MM decided to make his films, and I was saying that I am certainly going to bitch about deceitful statements presented as fact, and then i provided an example of that. it was the woman with her weird rabbit business being represented as someone who is poor because of the plant closing when in fact she was poor because her husband died over a decade before, and posted a link providing evidence of that. Now tell me why I shouldnt think that its wrong for him to lie/misrepresent events and present them as fact, instead of throwing an unrelated question my way.
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You are not saying that when a plant that size closes, it has no impact on other people than those who were directly employed there, then?

nails3jesus0 said:
I said 'all his movies' have assertions that remain unsupported because of deciet. but one good example we have going is that he said he grew up in flint, when no such thing occured. lets stick to that for now.
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No, why don't we stick to what is discussed in this thread, namely MM and his current film?

What, in his current film about Cuba is so bad? Where does he lie?
 
dann said:
Why the need for such blatant lies?

While I haven't personally been to Cuba, my ex is Cuban as is all her family. I'll take their first hand knowledge and call your googling skills...poor.
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dann said:
So like all other woowoos you prefer to rely on anecdotal evidence! No wonder!
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If you prefer to tell folks who have lived a significant part of their lives in Cuba that their experience are only "anecdotal", well then that's your right.....because you don't live in Cuba.
 
Alt+F4 said:
If you prefer to tell folks who have lived a significant part of their lives in Cuba that their experience are only "anecdotal", well then that's your right.....because you don't live in Cuba.
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I say approximately the same thing to people who claim that they are talking to the dead - and actually get answers from them! They usually react just like you, i.e. telling me that somebody like me who doesn't live in Woowooland shouldn't doubt their lies!
I spent 6½ weeks in Cuba in 2006! When was the last time your ex was there? Have you got any other reason to doubt the articles I quoted than the word of a few revanchist Cuban ex-pats?
 
I don't mean to doubt your ex, but (for example) the questions a sceptic would ask might centre around her presence in the US and whether this might be a reflection on a political position which, in turn, may lead to a certain perspective on the current regime.
 
Architect said:
I don't mean to doubt your ex, but (for example) the questions a sceptic would ask might centre around her presence in the US and whether this might be a reflection on a political position which, in turn, may lead to a certain perspective on the current regime.
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Most of them are proud Marielitos (damn you Al Pacino!) who came in 1980, a few came in 1967 (still not sure how they got out). They all came for economic, rather than political reasons.

Until her own mother died a few years ago my ex's mother returned to Cuba on yearly basis, via Mexico City. The number one request was always medical supplies, it's been even worse since 1990. This family isn't in Havana, they are in a small in the interior so they don't have the opportunity to get in on the tourist money coming in from Canada and Europe.
 
http://www.journalismfellowships.org/stories/cuba/cuba_future.htm

In many poor countries, infectious diseases and malnutrition are the biggest killers. But Cuba's vaccination program — Cuban children get 13 vaccinations — prevents those diseases. In Cuba, heart disease and cancer are the leading causes of death, the same as in the USA.

Coming from a dictatorship, such statistics, even when they are backed up by U.S. government estimates, are often greeted with suspicion.


At a special conference in January on how Cuba might withstand a medical or humanitarian crisis, Andrew Natsios of the U.S. Agency for International Development warned that dictators such as Castro have a flair for bending the truth. Alfredo Melgar, a Cuban doctor who fled the communist island for the United States in 1994, agrees. "Castro is a liar," he says.
 
Joshua Korosi said:
No, it is not. It is "lying".
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I haven't noticed a precise quote of Moore's purported lie. Nor am I sure what you mean when you put lying in quotes*. That said, given the fact that Moore was born in Flint, went to college in Flint, worked in Flint, parents worked in Flint, and he grew up in a dinky town (population 5000 today, who knows what it was in the 1950's) that is essentially a suburb of Flint (population 124,000), to say that Moore lied by claiming he grew up in Flint takes hyper-semantic inanity to a surreal extreme.

And that's not even counting the additional information in the link that Dann posted.

* I suspect these comments should be directed at nails3jesus0 and not you.

(For the record, I'm not a fan of Moore or his films.)
 
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steverino said:
http://www.journalismfellowships.org/stories/cuba/cuba_future.htm
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Then I guess that this (from your link) is probably a lie too:
Yet efforts to improve health here have had remarkable results. More than 15% of Cubans are now 60 years or older. Cuba's infant-mortality and life-expectancy rates are among the best for a developing country. The infant-mortality rate is 6.45 out of 1,000 live births, not far behind the USA, where it's 6.63. At 77, the average Cuban lives longer than neighbors in the Bahamas (65.6) or Jamaica (76.1). The U.S. average is 77.4.
(...)
The data are further put in doubt by Cuba's chronic shortages, which include medical equipment and medicines. Doctors earn less than taxi drivers. The government spends 16% of its meager annual budget on health care.

But Cuban physicians have shown the same kind of resourcefulness that drivers here use to keep their half-century-old cars running. "Cuba is obsessed with health," says Frederick Burkle, a public health specialist at Johns Hopkins University.

"I call it MacGyver medicine," says Sarpoma Sefa-Boakye, 23, who left UCLA to study for free at the Latin American School of Medicine, which is housed in a converted Cuban naval base. Much like the fictional TV character MacGyver, Cuban doctors perform near-miracles with rudimentary equipment, Sefa-Boakye says. She hopes to take these skills back to the USA to treat poor communities in California. "We learn how to do more with less," she says.
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And Fidel Castro is probably only 52 and faking it ...
 
varwoche said:
I haven't noticed a precise quote of Moore's purported lie. Nor am I sure what you mean when you put lying in quotes*. That said, given the fact that Moore was born in Flint, went to college in Flint, worked in Flint, parents worked in Flint, and he grew up in a dinky town (population 5000 today, who knows what it was in the 1950's) that is essentially a suburb of Flint (population 124,000), to say that Moore lied by claiming he grew up in Flint takes hyper-semantic inanity to a surreal extreme.

And that's not even counting the additional information in the link that Dann posted.

* I suspect these comments should be directed at nails3jesus0 and not you.

(For the record, I'm not a fan of Moore or his films.)
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For those of you who believe Moore's claim of growing up in Flint (anyone have a source for that) is a lie, do you agree that this from the OP is a lie?
So the guy knowingly breaks the law to make a film, then complains he's being persecuted?
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AFAIK it has yet to be determined if Moore broke the law, and AFAIK he never complained about being "persecuted" (if we're going to get all literal and semantic).

eta:
I'm highly skeptical of anyone who uses the term "persecution" when describing their own treatment, as that term conjures up (to me anyway) people who have been physically harmed or killed based on their beliefs. It's one thing to complain about the government not allowing one to travel to Cuba, and another to claim "persecution." IMHO Moore has genuine reasons to complain.

I saw him at a bar in Chicago in '96. He was so fat he WAS a suburb.
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Excellent point--Moore is a fatty! At last we are getting to substantive issues. Well played.
 
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