Michael Moore in trouble?

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

I decided to see 'micheal moore hates america' to try and get an alternate side to everything. I was expecting neo con propaganda (fox news style), but it was pretty neat, they went and re interviewed people who were featured in moore's movies, and that part was interesting. There are some silly parts where some guests try to explain personal things about moore that are impossible to know *psychological problems and such* but its still worth watching, just so you can see what he did in order to set up all of his interviews, the thing about the free gun in the bank was especially interesting. Oh, and he made up that whole thing about growing up in flint to make roger&me seem personal. I hope his movie tanks. Its really dissapointing to see how his movies seem to take off in france, its just feeding into already negetive stereotypes about america/ns, and hes using lies to do it.

A recent film came out in Canada called Manufacturing Dissent that is very critical of Moore. The interesting thing about it is that the filmmakers are very closely aligned with Moore politically, and say they are disturbed by what they see as dishonesty and duplicity in his "documentaries." They originally set out to make a film celebrating Moore's work, but when they looked into his tactics, decided they didn't agree with them.

Michael Moore Exposed

 

[steverino]

Moore's gimmick in Roger & Me was that Roger Smith was elusive and Moore could not get to him to interview him. When the movie came out, I was sold on it as total fact. A week after I saw it, I was photographing a successful car dealer in suburban Chicago and asked if he'd seen the movie. I swear he said to me, "No, Steve. But I'm having lunch with Roger next week. He'd let you take a picture of him if you'd like to meet him."

(I should have taken him up on it just to brag, but was shy. The point of course is that, anecdotally, he was no Howard Hues as far as hiding from the camera.)

 

[Pardalis]

*COUGH* Rosa Parks *COUGH*

You can't possibly be serious. Are you actually comparing Michael Moore to Rosa Parks?

This is insane.

 

[jimtron]

Moore's gimmick in Roger & Me was that Roger Smith was elusive and Moore could not get to him to interview him. When the movie came out, I was sold on it as total fact. A week after I saw it, I was photographing a successful car dealer in suburban Chicago and asked if he'd seen the movie. I swear he said to me, "No, Steve. But I'm having lunch with Roger next week. He'd let you take a picture of him if you'd like to meet him."

(I should have taken him up on it just to brag, but was shy. The point of course is that, anecdotally, he was no Howard Hues as far as hiding from the camera.)

Do you think Moore didn't really request an interview, and was only pretending to try to contact him? Maybe he didn't mind being photographed, but didn't want to answer tough questions from a lefty with family members who got layed off from GM?

 

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

Do you think Moore didn't really request an interview, and was only pretending to try to contact him? Maybe he didn't mind being photographed, but didn't want to answer tough questions from a lefty with family members who got layed off from GM?

Moore did get chances to personally ask Roger Smith questions. Twice. He left it out of the movie.

 

[Earthborn]

Moore's gimmick in Roger & Me was that Roger Smith was elusive and Moore could not get to him to interview him. When the movie came out, I was sold on it as total fact.

Linky (Windows Media Video Stream, probably works only in IE).

 

[tundranaut]

Yeah, we're all upset we can't visit Cuba or North Korea easily. They're both on everybody's Top Ten Place I'd Like To Visit list.

What's interesting is that one of my favorite reads from the past couple years---Pico Iyer's FALLING OFF THE MAP: SOME LONELY PLACES OF THE WORLD---made Cuba and North Korea both sound like extremely weird, unique and fascinating places.

I wouldn't mind seeing both before I die...

But back on topic---like a previous poster, I thoroughly enjoyed MICHAEL MOORE HATES AMERICA, and I was happy to discover that it wasn't a FOX NEWS-style hit piece on Moore but rather a pretty genuine and interesting piece of documentary film-making.

 

[skeptifem]

He was born in Flint. His family worked there. He grew up 17 miles away. Do you have a direct quote--I'm curious how he phrased this and the context.

Even if it was technically a lie, isn't it fair to say that he had a strong personal connection to Flint, the place of his birth, where his mom and dad and grandfather were employed? The point of the movie was how GM's plant closings affected the community. His family was part of that community (employees of GM). Was he really being dishonest about this? It does not appear that way to me.

I was looking for a direct quote and found something else. jeez. this is so dishonest.

http://www.wave3.com/Global/story.asp?S=2928401

Ross, a sheriffs deputy, was shown throughout the movie evicting residents. Moore's movie gave the impression the layoffs led to the evictions.
But Ross told us that was a lie. "They didn't have nothing to do with General Motors."
But did Michael Moore know that, we asked.
"Yeah he knew that," Ross said. "He had to. He talked to those people too."
Moore's movies suggests that Britton's eccentric money making scheme, selling rabbits for pets or meat, was also a result of hardships caused by the GM layoffs.
But Britton says the reason her husband stopped working for GM was because he died -- more than a decade before the movie was shot.

A release obtained by WAVE 3 that was allowed for a paltry payoff for those who appeared in the movie.

"One hundred bucks," said Ross. "That's a slap in the face, man. A lousy hundred dollars."

...

GM never left town completely as "Roger and Me" implies. In fact, the company has invested $2 billion in Flint since 1998.

But Flint officials say Moore hasn't put one penny of his millions back into his hometown. Maybe that's because it's not really his hometown.

jeez

 

[skeptifem]

Moore's gimmick in Roger & Me was that Roger Smith was elusive and Moore could not get to him to interview him. When the movie came out, I was sold on it as total fact. A week after I saw it, I was photographing a successful car dealer in suburban Chicago and asked if he'd seen the movie. I swear he said to me, "No, Steve. But I'm having lunch with Roger next week. He'd let you take a picture of him if you'd like to meet him."

(I should have taken him up on it just to brag, but was shy. The point of course is that, anecdotally, he was no Howard Hues as far as hiding from the camera.)

in 'michael moore hates america' the director tries to get in touch with moore so he can answer for his films (it mimics roger&me) and cant get ahold of him at all (LOL!). it was a pretty clever idea.

 

[Mycroft]

Mycroft, would you agree that Moore had a personal connection to Flint and GM employees?

In what way?

He seems to have the same "personal connection" with Flint that I have with any town within driving distance of anyplace I've ever lived.

Does he have a "personal connection" with GM employees? What does that even mean? I have a buddy who works in a GM warehouse, does that qualify? Does that give me any authority to speak on the topic that you don't have?

 

[CFLarsen]

Then why not just say "I grew up in a suburb of Flint"? Why lie?

When you have a plant with, what, 50,000 workers, everything focuses on that plant.

No.

Why on Earth not?

You can't possibly be serious. Are you actually comparing Michael Moore to Rosa Parks?

This is insane.

Why? Rosa Parks protested an unjust government, in a non-violent manner. Michael Moore is doing the same thing.

 

[dann]

Meanwhile the average Cuban lives with permanent malnutrition and long waits for even basic medical services.

Why the need for such blatant lies?

In the last MICS survey of 2000, the prevalence of malnutrition among pre-school age children, based on the three main anthropometric indicators, was below 5% at national level, with minimal differences among regions. The highest prevalence rates were see in rural areas and in the Occidente region where stunting was 7%. These remarkably low percentages of child malnutrition put Cuba at the forefront of developing countries. Overweight among children showed an increase in prevalence in the 1980s, followed by a decrease between 1993 and 1998 when prevalence rates stabilized around 5%.
The Body Mass Index (BMI) of adults showed that 9% of women and 6% of men were chronically energy deficient. More important to highlight is the high prevalence of overweight and obesity among adults (37% in women and 32% in men).
http://www.fao.org/ag/agn/nutrition/cub-e.stm (nutrition country profiles)

The embargo/blockade and tendencies towards malnutrition in Cuba in the 1990s: http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ108.html

Obesity: A Growing Problem in Cuba
By Gloria Giraldo, MPH
December 1, 2006 -- Worldwide, 1.6 billion adults are overweight and at least 400 million are obese[1]. Once considered a problem only in high-income countries, overweight and obesity are now dramatically on the rise in low- and middle-income countries. In Mexico for example, one of the leading causes of premature death is obesity[2]; even in Cuba, a Third World country with First World health indicators, obesity is on the rise.
Cuba’s 2004–2005 Comprehensive Childhood Study found 10.2% of children are overweight and 8.8% are obese.[4] Although lower than in other countries, obesity is becoming a major public health problem in Cuba.
(…)
Nationally meanwhile, the prevalence of overweight and obesity for the population over age 15 in Cuba was 61.1% for women and 59.2% for men. The data for obesity exclusively for the same population were as follows: 14.9% for men and 24.6% for women[5].
In the United States, between 1990 and 2000, the prevalence of obesity increased from 22.9% to 30% and the prevalence of overweight increased from 55.9% to 64.5%[6]. Currently, one third of US children and youth are either obese or at risk of becoming so, rates that have increased dramatically over the past three decades (see chart).
(…)
“The Cuban experience with obesity is radically different from other Third World countries,” explains Dr. Jorge Bacallao, co-editor of the book Obesity and Poverty. The fundamental difference he says, is that Cuba eradicated the severe manifestations of malnutrition early on, which currently co-exist with obesity in other Third World countries.[8] This means that rather than having to fight the nutritional battle on two fronts simultaneously – malnutrition and obesity – Cuba can focus more closely (and devote more resources) to the problems of overweight and obesity.

http://www.medicc.org/publications/cuba_health_reports/007.php

 

[jimtron]

Does he have a "personal connection" with GM employees? What does that even mean? I have a buddy who works in a GM warehouse, does that qualify? Does that give me any authority to speak on the topic that you don't have?

A personal connection is like a relationship between a friend or family member. Yes, that does qualify. One does not need to be an authority to voice an opinion or make a film. If your parents and grandfather worked at a company that closed down in a town where you were born, and you wanted to make a film about it, I wouldn't have a problem with that.

I don't recall Moore claiming to be an authority. But he wasn't exactly an outsider either.

 

[gtc]

When you have a plant with, what, 50,000 workers, everything focuses on that plant.

Non sequitur.

 

[dann]

Meanwhile the average Cuban lives with permanent malnutrition and long waits for even basic medical services.

Why the need for such blatant lies?

In 2006, BBC flagship news programme Newsnight featured Cuba's Healthcare system as part of a series identifying "the world's best public services". The report noted that "Thanks chiefly to the American economic blockade, but partly also to the web of strange rules and regulations that constrict Cuban life, the economy is in a terrible mess: national income per head is minuscule, and resources are amazingly tight. Healthcare, however, is a top national priority" The report stated that life expectancy and infant mortality rates are pretty much the same as the USA's. Its doctor-to-patient ratios stand comparison to any country in Western Europe. Its annual total health spend per head, however, comes in at $251; just over a tenth of the UK's. The report concluded that the population's admirable health is one of the key reasons why Castro is still in power.[20]
In 2000, Secretary General of the United Nations Kofi Annan stated that "Cuba should be the envy of many other nations" adding that achievements in social development are impressive given the size of its gross domestic product per capita. "Cuba demonstrates how much nations can do with the resources they have if they focus on the right priorities - health, education, and literacy."[21]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Cuba

 

[CFLarsen]

Non sequitur.

Why?

 

[dann]

El medico en Chupa Chupa!
Malnutrition and healthcare in Cuba ....

 

[skeptifem]

When you have a plant with, what, 50,000 workers, everything focuses on that plant.

this excuses lying how?

and if it effected his town so much, why not feature the effect on his own town in addition to flint?

Why? Rosa Parks protested an unjust government, in a non-violent manner. Michael Moore is doing the same thing.

rosa parks didnt have to make up lies and decieve people in order to gain support for her cause.

 

[CFLarsen]

this excuses lying how?

How is it lying? His family worked there, for generations. The whole area went into a slump after the plant closed.

and if it effected his town so much, why not feature the effect on his own town in addition to flint?

Why not feature the effect on his own street?

Sure, you can bitch about why MM doesn't do it the way you want him to do it.

rosa parks didnt have to make up lies and decieve people in order to gain support for her cause.

You don't agree with MM's statement, and you think it is a lie.

How does this invalidate his point?

 

[skeptifem]

How is it lying?

because, saying 'i grew up in flint' when you didnt is a lie. its pretty friggin simple.

The whole area went into a slump after the plant closed.

evidence? everything i read says his hometown is/was a white collar, middle class, suburban place with better economic standing than flint.

Why not feature the effect on his own street?

Sure, you can bitch about why MM doesn't do it the way you want him to do it.

I certainly should bitch about MM presenting deliberatley misleading statements as fact. Like the woman who sold bunnies for food or pets. it was implied she got screwed by the closing of the plant, but it had nothing to do with that. see the news article i quoted.

You don't agree with MM's statement, and you think it is a lie.

How does this invalidate his point?

his films are all filled with multiple lies or deceptions, soooo it invalidates his point because he doesnt have real evidence to back up his assertions.