Michael Brown Shooting

[casebro]

Gee what a busy place. There are so many eye "witnesses" the shooting must have been in the stadium during a Billy Graham revival.

Some of us are talking about whether Brown could have turned around and started a charge in the 3 second gap. Yet half a dozen "witnesses" would have us believe that in the couple seconds between the shot in the car and the second shot, they dropped whatever they were doing and ran to the window/out the door, and saw the rest of it.

I smell Dannish Sardines.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I understand what point blank means.

My understanding is that there was no gunshot residue on brown (per baden) so he was not shot point blank.

I am still trying to understand the scenario that works with the 10 gunshots and the witness statements.

For example, Michael Brady saw a tussle. He didn't hear a shot at the car, the first shot was at browns back at least 20 feet away. 1 or 2 shots, and wilson didn't hit brown.

How does that work with the recording ?

1) recognize the recording is from its beginning, and it misses the first shot from the car.

Brady's hearing or not pretty much everyone including 'Josie' and the police chief said there was one shot from within the car. The variation in accounts is only if that shot hit Brown or not. Johnson thought it did and thought he saw blood. The autopsy didn't confirm that, but it also didn't include all of the evidence one needs to determine that: clothing, Xrays and crime scene evidence.

Whether Brown was or wasn't hit by the first shot is not relevant to Wilson's later decision making. It only makes Brown run out of fear.​

So you have a volley of shots and we don't know if Brown was running away at that time or had already turned around.

Four witnesses say Wilson was shooting as Brown was running away. The one on the recorded video said "he kept coming" after Brown turned around and that bullets are flying and Brown isn't stopped by them.

Four witnesses say they saw Brown getting/going down (Brady says "balled up") when the last volley of shots killed him.

Now you explain that, given the pause before the last four shots.

How the four shots that hit Brown's arm occurred, there is a little uncertainty but there are certainly more plausible scenarios than Brown bull rushing Wilson.

It's possible one hit at the car, it's possible one hit while Brown was running away. It's possible the volley of six shots hit Brown as he was turning.

It's possible Wilson saw he hit Brown and he paused for three seconds, Brown's attempt to get down caused Wilson to shoot again killing him.

There are many scenarios for the three second pause. Brown taunting Wilson before or in the middle of the two volleys is not a plausible one.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Oh? ^^^^

He isn't the first. What I am saying is that he could NOT have turned and gone after Wilson, because the time from the pause to the last volley of shots is way too short for that. This recording demolishes this theory. It could not have happened this way.

I have already pointed out that the pause cannot account for 6 or 5 hits from the front, unless Brown had turned around to face Wilson before the recording began..

I'm not sure what you are ruling out and why..

I would need to see a hypothetical timeline ( 8 seconds ) that you are proposing to discuss it further..


I do not rule out the possibility that I am being unintentionally dense...

 

[Cylinder]

If he was just punched in the eye, I don't think the GJ will consider that enough to pursue Brown as a felon, even though it actually is a felony to punch a cop.

First, I should acknowledge that you seem to be correct concerning the distance argument, though I cannot pinpoint exactly where Brown ended up in relation to the vehicle it's very likely more like 35 yards than 35 feet. Mea culpa.

As far as mere pursuit, that's Wilson's job. If he claimed he shot Brown in order to effect arrest or solely because Brown refused to submit to arrest, then Wilson is toast -- that's not how the law is interpreted. He did however, have the power -- and the responsibility -- to pursue Brown both for the strong-arm robbery (if one deems that part of the Josie narrative credible) and the assault. Brown has no claim on resisting an unlawful detention/arrest here.

What's left in my mind is Wilson's own justification, where the spent casings ended up and how many times Wilson fired.

In a kind of political sense, those seem to be lining up behind Wilson's narrative behind the scenes -- either that or the county, state and federal government are going to have some 'splaining to do referencing their inaction in the face of damning evidence while Ferguson burned. I think an objective person can see the kind of competing interests within those jurisdictions and why some overarching collusion to hide this hypothetical scenario seems pretty unlikely.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Wilson likely approached these two antagonistically​

That. Please elaborate, based on your expertise in ... whatever ... how you know that "Wilson likely approached these two antagonistically."

...

"Get the out of the street" sounds pretty antagonistic to me. And the relationship between the cops and the black citizens in the community suggests Johnson's account is not far fetched.

 

[Newtons Bit]

Johnson said that Wilson pulled up beside them and said, "Get the **** on the sidewalk."[59][60][61][62][63] Johnson said the young men replied that they were "not but a minute away from [their] destination, and [they] would shortly be out of the street".

-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Michael_Brown#cite_note-USAToday.Witness-63

Yea, mhmm. Sounds totally legit. Yep.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

"Get the out of the street" sounds pretty antagonistic to me. And the relationship between the cops and the black citizens in the community suggests Johnson's account is not far fetched.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/236754541/Dorian-Johnson-Q-A
So, were both headed home and the officer approaching us and as he pulled up on the side of us, he didnt say freeze, halt or nothing like we were committing a crime. He said, get the eff on the sidewalk. More like chastising from a father or something, where you are doing something wrong, you know, not committing a crime
I think the person the words were actually spoken to disagrees with you.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

... He had to have already turned and taken a hit before the 4 shot volley was fired..

Whether he was rushing or falling forward, at least one shot had to hit him in the top of the head.. Falling forward after taking a couple of hits or more, makes more sense to me..
I also don't see how Wilson was making any conscious decisions about the situation during the last four shots. he was just pulling the trigger.

So Brown is going down during those 3 seconds and Wilson just keeps firing even though he had stopped?

.So, if Brown was not face down before the seventh shot, then the last four were just Wilson's continuing reaction to what had happened up to that point. And one happened to hit him in the top of the head.. I don't believe there was any indication that Wilson fired ' downward ' toward the top of Browns head.

It is easy to imagine that as Brown fell forward, for whatever reason, one of the volley of four, hit him in the top of the head, without Wilson consciously aiming for it, or thinking he was delivering a kill shot..

Explain Wilson stopping shooting for three seconds then delivering 4 more shots as part of a single shooting volley.

Explain two shots from the top of the head down because the shot above the eyebrow was also traveling from the top down.



As for downward, keep in mind that is saying Brown's head was now lower than Wilson's firing level. It doesn't mean Wilson stood over Brown and pumped 4 rounds into him.

 

[Unabogie]

I have already pointed out that the pause cannot account for 6 or 5 hits from the front, unless Brown had turned around to face Wilson before the recording began..

I'm not sure what you are ruling out and why..

I would need to see a hypothetical timeline ( 8 seconds ) that you are proposing to discuss it further..


I do not rule out the possibility that I am being unintentionally dense...

Because we know that the first volley of shots were fired as Brown was running away. This is confirmed by both the witnesses and the police.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/...s-Officer-Wilson-Shot-at-Brown-as-He-Ran-Away

Based on this confirmation from police that Wilson fired as Brown was running away, we now have some facts to put together:

1) Only one of those initial shots from behind could have hit, judging by the autopsy.
2) The final volley of shots, as heard on the recording, account for the majority of hits. And since that volley only contained four shots, it stands to reason that the other two hits occurred in both the initial shot by the car and ONLY one of the six shots fired while Brown was turned away.
3) This means that Brown was facing away during the six shots, and turned around only for the final 4 shots.
4) This means that because the pause between the volleys was so brief, the whole "turning around, taunting, then bullrushing" thing could NOT have happened like Josie claimed.

None of this means Wilson killed Brown as an execution. I think it says he more likely lost control of his anger and then couldn't use good judgement. I don't think this was a justified shooting, based on all of this information. I don't believe his excuses for why it was.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I really don't recall anyone here at JREF forums putting ' bull-rushing ' forth as a likely scenario; not recently anyway, but it is something you frequently argue against as if it is seriously worth discrediting..

Could you clarify who you are arguing against in this regard...

I don't recall reading any mass change of mind that it's now agreed the head shots were not due to Brown bull-rushing at Wilson.

I'm glad to hear that less than credible scenario has been dismissed.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

..... She repeatedly argues that someone is attributing the top-of-the-head shot to ' bull-rushing ', when no one has claimed that, but presented plausible alternative explanations,

That's your rationale for denying what's been posted in this thread again and again, they only proposed it they never meant it actually happened?

.....that do not include willful execution, with an awareness that Brown was trying to surrender..

And in the same sentence you repeat the straw man that I really don't think is anywhere in this thread, claiming it was a willful execution. I do believe one or more persons said if Wilson kept firing at Brown who was already down it was murder.

But for the most part we are saying Wilson used excessive force given the situation and was negligent in not stopping shooting as Brown went down.

I don't buy for a minute that Wilson was not responsible for those last 4 shots because it is OK for a cop to just shoot and shoot without thinking.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Or, Wilson had 13 shots.

The first 3 were fired at the car and as Brown ran away. (ETA: to clarify at the car - as in from inside the car, then outside maybe)

Then Wilson chased Brown, Brown Stopped, turned around.
Taunted Wilson and came towards him.
Wilson fired 6 shots.
Brown stopped started to raise his hands, then stumbled forward, putting his arms down, causing wilson to fire the last 4 rounds in his weapon as brown moved towards him.

That scenario seems to square with the witness accounts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Michael_Brown#James_McKnight

It also accounts for a large time gap where everybody went to go get a phone but not record anything.

I am certain I must have missed some things, so please point them out.

 

[carlitos]

"Get the out of the street" sounds pretty antagonistic to me. And the relationship between the cops and the black citizens in the community suggests Johnson's account is not far fetched.

Johnson's account is not far-fetched; yours is.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/236754541/Dorian-Johnson-Q-A
So, were both headed home and the officer approaching us and as he pulled up on the side of us, he didnt say freeze, halt or nothing like we were committing a crime. He said, get the eff on the sidewalk. More like chastising from a father or something, where you are doing something wrong, you know, not committing a crime
I think the person the words were actually spoken to disagrees with you.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Michael_Brown#cite_note-USAToday.Witness-63

Yea, mhmm. Sounds totally legit. Yep.

You got a problem, Homie ? You do now.

 

[Distracted1]

"Get the out of the street" sounds pretty antagonistic to me. And the relationship between the cops and the black citizens in the community suggests Johnson's account is not far fetched.

Antagonism goes both ways, you know. You have referred back to the antagonistic relationship several times as evidence that officer Wilson might have cause to harass and ultimately murder Mr. Brown, but you seem to be blind to the fact that that relationship could in fact also offer evidence of Mr. Browns motives in attacking the policeman.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Because he had, at least at this point, proven that he is willing to be aggressive towards, not just police, but civilians. Running doesn't mean you aren't a threat to others, just that he may not be a thread to Wilson at the time.

By that reasoning, anyone who has ever done anything aggressive is a threat.

...Plus, I tackled the case of Johnson, you're assuming that Wilson KNEW that Johnson was hiding by that car. That's not the case, unless you can prove it. They both ran, Wilson followed one individual, how could he have known where both were?

If he didn't, then what a lousy cop he must have been. Losing sight of a possibly dangerous suspect, running past him so now one suspect is behind you?

That's a nice strawman, but I didn't "come up" with anything. I also haven't taken a firm stance on anything, unlike some others.

So many people back pedaling, that's interesting.

I openly stated that I wasn't familiar with the software, and even more to the point, I never made an assumption. I said I didn't understand something, that's not making an assumption, it's asking for clarification. ...

Your quote:

I don't understand how the first shot could be missed on the audio as the individual that recorded was obviously was MID conversation, not at the beginning of the conversation.

I'm glad you stand corrected.

Once again, it's not an assumption. It was shown by the autopsy report. ....

It was not shown by the autopsy report that all shots came from the front.

I see no reason to go over that fact again and again.

But I'm glad to see you changing your initial stand on Wilson's actions.

Did anything in the statement you quoted give you the impression that I don't believe there was a shot from the car? Are you even reading what you're quoting? Nothing in my statement said that I don't believe a shot was fired in the car. Keep up.

No, you said you thought part of the recording was missing. You now recognize it was not.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I have already pointed out that the pause cannot account for 6 or 5 hits from the front, unless Brown had turned around to face Wilson before the recording began..

I'm not sure what you are ruling out and why..

I would need to see a hypothetical timeline ( 8 seconds ) that you are proposing to discuss it further. ...

If the shots were initially fired as Brown was fleeing and he stopped and turned around, that volley of 6 shots could have been during the time Brown was turning around. And depending on the position of Brown's arms he could have been struck by one shot from the back (the mid arm graze).

That leaves only one shot in the arm necessary to have come from the volley of 6. However, I don't think it's necessary that of the last 4 shots that two hit the arm and two hit the head. So any combination of the volley of 6 and the last 4 shots could account for all four of the arm wounds.

If Brown's hands were going up, those arm wounds might show that when we get the full autopsy report.

I don't see why it's hard to match up the two volleys with Brown being shot at while fleeing, turning around, getting hit and then the 3 second pause.

That's where the problem for Wilson comes in though. Because combined with the fact two of the wounds put Brown's head down, whether getting down or falling down, what scenario fits that head position in after the 3 second pause?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

...what scenario fits that head position in after the 3 second pause?

That would be him falling forward as the shots are being fired..

Would a diagram with a timeline help?

Is it impossible for any of the last four shots to have missed?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...What's left in my mind is Wilson's own justification, where the spent casings ended up and how many times Wilson fired....

10 or more shots, we know that from the audio, 11 if you count the one shot from the vehicle.

But as for the casing locations, I found this study though obviously different guns have different patterns:
http://www.forcescience.org/articles/ShellCasingStudy.pdf

But you can see from that, that while the casings more frequently eject behind and to the right:

The reader can see that accounting for firearm position and grip but not firearm motion, type, or ammunition further confirms that most spent cartridge casings land to the right and rear of the shooter. However, this also once again leaves some of the spent cartridges casings unaccounted for in another quadrant and again does not consider dispersal within the quadrant as a significant factor.

There is a lot of good information there about casing positions and various conditions.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/236754541/Dorian-Johnson-Q-A
So, were both headed home and the officer approaching us and as he pulled up on the side of us, he didnt say freeze, halt or nothing like we were committing a crime. He said, get the eff on the sidewalk. More like chastising from a father or something, where you are doing something wrong, you know, not committing a crime
I think the person the words were actually spoken to disagrees with you.

I don't know about you but if my father cussed at me I'd call that antagonistic.