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Michael Brown Shooting

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Upchurch said:
We have a video of Brown shoving a guy. He was probably stealing the cigars, but as far as I am aware, no charges were filed and he certainly wasn't convicted. Regardless, that is no reason to believe he would either wrestle a cop or attempt to kill someone.


1. Why?
2. Why?


As we have seen, sworn officers of the law are not above acting like thugs themselves. I see no reason for giving them the benefit of the doubt above anyone else who has shot and killed another human being.


Again, your psychic powers are amazing. Perhaps you would be better off sticking to the evidence as it currently exists.
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You realize that in your post you completely disregard concrete evidence of the very man involved in the shooting, ten minutes before it happened behaving badly, then go on tot say that because some other cops, at other times have behaved badly, officer Wilson ( the accused ) does not get the benefit of the doubt.

That seems logically inconsistent without attributing a degree of bias to the reasoning.
 
TheL8Elvis said:
How about this one ?
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That's not far fetched at all. Did you miss my post where I measured the street in front of my house and it is 22 feet wide? It is also a collector street with a yellow line the same as the street Brown died in.

But I know, you all really really want that street to be a busy boulevard to justify your position that those violent black felons were obstructing traffic.:rolleyes:
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
No it isn't.

Brown already smarted off in some way (verbal or actions) when he didn't get off the street.

Whether Wilson opened the door into Brown who pushed it back, or Brown did something else, if Wilson had a swollen cheek (which I have no reason to doubt), I don't doubt the door or Brown hit Wilson. I'm leaning toward the door because I can't see a kid who's gotten to 18 without having been arrested is the kind of person who is going to punch a cop in the face for very little reason other than the door hitting Brown. It's possible, I'm not ruling it out. [ . . . ]
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And you assert the hilited because...?
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
That's not far fetched at all.
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It's absolutely far fetched to claim the street is 20 feet wide after being shown a measurement of 28' with google maps, and another measurement showing the accuracy of google maps.

Skeptic Ginger said:
Did you miss my post where I measured the street in front of my house and it is 22 feet wide? It is also a collector street with a yellow line the same as the street Brown died in.
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Nope, I saw that post. Your street doesn't actually have a yellow line, does it ?

Skeptic Ginger said:
But I know, you all really really want that street to be a busy boulevard to justify your position that those violent black felons were obstructing traffic.:rolleyes:
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You mean if the street wasn't busy they wouldn't obstruct traffic by walking the middle of the street ? :confused: They would still obstruct whatever traffic was there.

Honestly, I still don't understand what the importance of the width was, I was just amused with the inability to admit it was 28 feet wide.

And at the end of the day, it's not even important that they were blocking traffic. It's the events that transpired after ...
 
My guess as to what occurred has changed a bit since watching this video of another shooting:

http://www.newsweek.com/new-video-police-shooting-2nd-man-st-louis-emerges-266041

There were two things here that affected my thinking about the Ferguson shooting in that video:
1. The reaction of some of the people on the facebook page where it was linked to.
I see the video as a perfect example of when the police should attempt to use non-lethal weapons to subdue a clearly disturbed individual. Two people responding on the facebook page that saw that video thought the police acted appropriately and they attempted to justify the shooting. Clearly if there is going to be this much difference of opinion about a police shooting when there is video of the incident any possibility that a consensus can be reached on the Ferguson shooting is just about zero. The Wilson supporters will support Wilson almost without regard to the facts beyond the fact that Brown robbed a convenience store, probably assaulted Wilson and Wilson was a cop or perhaps Brown was a black criminal and Wilson was a white cop and that was enough in their eyes. And maybe the police defenders are right, real world cops are going to kill people that threaten them.

2. How quick the police were in that video to shoot somebody with the slightest possibility of injury to themselves:
Why do those cops carry Tasers and batons if the first line of action is to shoot the guy? I also noted the two quick shots when the guy was lying on the ground. Aren't these guys trained to stay calm in a dangerous situation? Really? The guy is lying there, apparently well on his way to dead and somebody pumps in two more shots?

The second item in particular has changed my view of what is likely in the Ferguson shooting. I had assumed a higher level of control to be likely for almost any police officer than what I saw in the St. Louis shooting video. The shooter in that video was a lot more nervous than I would have thought likely for a police officer in that situation. Based on that it seems much more likely to me that once Wilson reached a certain level of agitation he may have been going to shoot Brown no matter what occurred.

The narrative that I believe is most plausible now is that Brown slammed the door back into police car which totally pissed Wilson off. Wilson attempted to subdue Brown or perhaps Brown attacked first and Brown took the opportunity to beat on Wilson and perhaps make a play for his gun. When the physical confrontation was over Wilson was out of control with fear and anger. Brown attempted to get away and Wilson shot him and from that point on the die was cast. Brown may not have been physically capable of surrendering after the first bullet struck him and Wilson was probably emotionally incapable of stopping before he had shot Brown enough times so that his death was a certainty.

If this set of facts is even roughly correct, exactly what should happen to Wilson? Is this kind of behavior deemed acceptable for a cop? If Brown had been a long time violent criminal the general reaction to the shooting even by the black community might have been favorable to Wilson. If Wilson shouldn't be convicted on this set of facts should the police department or Wilson have any civil liability here? Is it time the police department examined their policies with regard to the use of deadly force? Should it be acceptable for Wilson to shoot at Brown as he fled? Is there any point at which Wilson needed to wait to see if Brown was incapacitated before continuing to shoot him?

To expand a bit on the issue of whether Brown attempted to surrender: That may not be knowable. Was Brown physically capable of making a clear cut indication of surrender? Was his anger level elevated to the point that surrender was possible for him? And was Wilson out of control to the extent that regardless of what Brown did or didn't do with regard to an attempt to surrender Wilson was on an emotional path that was going to drive him to shoot Brown until Brown's death was a certainty.
 
pakeha said:
And you assert the hilited because...?
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:confused: I said why right there in the sentence.

You want that restated?

Brown was 18, no record, he pushed a store clerk and stole cigars.

I think it's more likely he pushed the door than it is likely he slugged the cop. He has no criminal record of fights, because if you are a black kid who gets in fights you have a criminal record. (See the School to Prison Pipeline: black kids get in a fight at school, cops are called and assault charges filed; white kids get in a fight at school and they get sent to the principal's office and a note sent home to the parents.)

It's one thing to ignore a police order to move to the sidewalk, it's a completely different animal to slug a cop.

It's not that easy to slug someone through a car window, while it's very easy to shove a door back on a person exiting a car, especially if that door just hit you and you reacted.

How is that not enough reason for my opinion for you?
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
:confused: I said why right there in the sentence.

You want that restated?

Brown was 18, no record, he pushed a store clerk and stole cigars.

I think it's more likely he pushed the door than it is likely he slugged the cop. He has no criminal record of fights, because if you are a black kid who gets in fights you have a criminal record. (See the School to Prison Pipeline: black kids get in a fight at school, cops are called and assault charges filed; white kids get in a fight at school and they get sent to the principal's office and a note sent home to the parents.)

It's one thing to ignore a police order to move to the sidewalk, it's a completely different animal to slug a cop.

It's not that easy to slug someone through a car window, while it's very easy to shove a door back on a person exiting a car, especially if that door just hit you and you reacted.

How is that not enough reason for my opinion for you?
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If he has a criminal record, does that change your take on things?
 
TheL8Elvis said:
It's absolutely far fetched to claim the street is 20 feet wide after being shown a measurement of 28' with google maps, and another measurement showing the accuracy of google maps.
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You're going to start this crap again? Pretty sure everything was already said. Except maybe, ever hear of the principle that you can't make a more precise measurement than your tool is capable of?

The claim that 28 feet is some kind of accurate measurement is unsupportable. Can you tell us the margin of error in that measurement?
TheL8Elvis said:
Nope, I saw that post. Your street doesn't actually have a yellow line, does it ?
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Yes, it does. They often use yellow reflectors here, not paint. You can see them better in the winter rain. The street in front of my house is designated arterial.


TheL8Elvis said:
Honestly, I still don't understand what the importance of the width was, I was just amused with the inability to admit it was 28 feet wide.

And at the end of the day, it's not even important that they were blocking traffic. It's the events that transpired after ...
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So why are you going on about the street then? And why should I admit what I've not seen evidence of? The street looks the same size as mine, mine is 22 feet wide. All you have is an asserted measurement of 28 feet, no evidence however that the measurement is accurate whereas I know I accurately measured the street in front of my house.
 
CNN
CNN) -- A company whose video chat service apparently captured audio of Michael Brown's shooting said Thursday the recording was created at the time the Missouri teenager was killed this month.
The revelation from Glide appears to bolster a man's claim that he inadvertently recorded audio of gunfire at the time a police officer shot and killed the 18-year-old Brown in the St. Louis suburb of Ferguson on August 9.
The video was created at 12:02:14 p.m. that day, Glide said. Brown, who was unarmed, was shot by Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson shortly after noon.
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BenBurch said:
They found nothing or they would have released that. Because they have been doing everything possible to demonize the victim here.
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So the anti Wilson scenario here is that Wilson harassed a couple of kids for no particular reason although the theory that he did it because they were walking in the street is just a pretext he created to justify hassling them?

In the process Wilson brings his car into contact with Brown who pushes the door away which hits Wilson by accident. This pisses Wilson off who starts to grapple with Brown, but then decides to take a shot at Brown again for no particular reason. What is Wilson's motivation in all this? Is he just looking for the pretext to shoot a black kid? Is it some kind of wild coincidence that the black kid had just committed a strong arm robbery? But he's really a nice kid who would never assault a police officer?

Right now, I'll give you there aren't enough publicly known facts to preclude a lot of possibilities, but I have trouble seeing one that has Brown completely innocent in all this. What is Wilson's motivation? Why did he pick this moment to engage with this kid? Isn't there a pretty good chance that the kid who may have been pretty excited after just committing a robbery is attempting to evade the police and he's just gotten away with one use of force to get away with a crime, why isn't it likely that he just did the same thing again?
 
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[IMGw=200]http://i.imgur.com/d5l5lc5.png[/IMGw][IMGw=200]http://i.imgur.com/RKq96Ok.png[/IMGw]

Using the 20ft Google map scale comparing my street to Canfield Dr, mine is 22, Canfield is 28.

There, happy?

Makes absolutely no difference in my argument (as I already said). It's a residential street and no cop here in my world would ever care that someone was walking in the middle of a residential street unless there was a reason in addition to just being in the street.

Cops here don't hassle people for such minor things and the fact this cop did is consistent with what we've also found out about the antagonistic relationship between the cops and citizens in Ferguson.
 
davefoc said:
My guess as to what occurred has changed a bit since watching this video of another shooting:

http://www.newsweek.com/new-video-police-shooting-2nd-man-st-louis-emerges-266041

There were two things here that affected my thinking about the Ferguson shooting in that video:
Click to expand...

I would add a third. The police were responding to a call about a clearly disturbed person, but made no attempt to deescalate the situation. They just got out of the car with guns drawn and barked orders.
 
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