Michael Brown Shooting

[plague311]

Glad we've moved on from street widths...this new audio recording (finally something new to talk about!) makes me wonder: The three second gap, is this where Brown decides to charge Wilson?

Well said...I'm still waiting for more evidence before my mind is made up. Isn't that what skeptics do?

I will wait to find out if this information is verified to be accurate or not before I commit. I believe more than one person has said that it's a little suspect for a couple of reasons.

That being said, if we're just throwing **** at the wall to see what sticks. It could have been a situation where they had a tussle at the car, Brown reaches for the gun, realizes he was too slow when the shot goes off. He runs away, Wilson being entirely too quick to the trigger starts a volley. At that point, Brown realizes that the cop is probably not going to stop, decides to turn around. This is what makes Wilson pause, Brown thinks it's his chance and tries to rush. Wilson decides to disregard any chance at tasing, macing or insert_tactic_here, as he has already made up his mind that Brown is a threat, whether he is or not is the $1,000,000 question, and finishes him off.

Again, just what popped off the top of my head. As I've been told since I was a kid that the truth lies somewhere in between both stories, this is what I came up with. We are still missing a ton of information, so it's really hard to tell.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

We let children smoke cigars, watch porn, vote, and drive? Damn...what a messed up country I live in.

When you were 18, I'd bet your parents more than once referred to you as their kid (unless you were an orphan by then).

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Even if Brown was guilty of all of the above, it does not necessarily indicate that he is also guilty of assaulting Wilson in this particular situation.

It's amazing to me how much people here want to talk about all the other situations, hypothetical scenarios, and so on... without being willing to acknowledge the fundamental truth that what is really relevant here is the (absence of?) evidence of wrongdoing on Wilson's part in this particular incident.

People want to keep talking about how "Brown was a thug" or how "the Ferguson police are racist", blah blah blah. What is needed here is less heat and more light, folks. And that means the careful collection and analysis of evidence.

Sheesh - it's like I'm talking Skepticism 101 here

Except the absence of evidence against Wilson isn't so absent. It's accumulating.

What bothers me is how readily three witnesses were dismissed as 'not evidence'. Even taking into account the motive Johnson would have had for fudging his version of events, he's been very credible in interviews, hasn't essentially changed his story, and his account was corroborated by other witnesses. And Crenshaw is not the most credible witness. But Mitchell is very credible and the tree of them are telling similar stories.

Now we have the autopsy and the audio recording that also corroborate the three witnesses.

 

[plague311]

We do have evidence of wrongdoing in the form of eyewitnesses who saw Wilson shoot Brown as he was surrendering. That some "skeptics" choose to completely dismiss these witnesses as irrelevant or fraudsters doesn't make them go away. The forensics closely matches what these witnesses say, and now that we have this audio, it even further buttresses the witnesses version of events. On the other hand, we have a bunch of people who just really love it when they get a chance to stick to "Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson" and make jokes about dead kids. I know which side I'd consider "skeptical" and it isn't them.

Wow, no hyperbole there, true skepticness at work. Because I don't specifically agree with you that means I'm a racist? At least that's what you're implying. I haven't a racist bone in my body, and I'm sick of this childish mud slinging. Just because I'm not 100% on board the Brown train doesn't make me a racist. Same as I don't say you hate white people because you don't agree with Wilson. There isn't just one specific kind of racism, you know that don't you?

The forensics also showed that Brown was reaching forward when he was shot, not that his hands were in the air surrendering. Unless that has now changed. Furthermore, how is a second or third autopsy not the same as second or third hand information? How does that work? The initial 2 autopsies don't alter the evidence at all? Before you lock the audio evidence in, wouldn't it be best to wait until it's verified authentic? I haven't seen that come out. The fact is neither side knows, and calling others a racist for disagreeing with you is about polar opposite of skepticism. Please go headboard raise somewhere else if that's the way it's going to work.

ETA: People....enough with the Zimmerman crap, he has NOTHING to do with this case.

 

[plague311]

When you were 18, I'd bet your parents more than once referred to you as their kid (unless you were an orphan by then).

What are you trying to sell here? Of course they referred to me as THEIR kid, I was THEIR kid. Are you saying that you are Michael Brown's parent? Are you his mother or father? If not, can we forego such a completely ridiculous comparison? That was one of the more blatant goal post shuffles though, you should be proud.

ETA: For the record, they referred to me more as an adult when I was 18 than a kid. As both of them were excited to get another kid out of their house and on their own.

 

[lionking]

Okay I have to admit it was a rhetorical question. Since we've established then that you believe that good policing consists of arbitrarily enforcing laws based on a whim, can you provide your qualifications that make you an authority on the subject? I apologize if your statement is merely opinion and conjecture but you never seem to use those words.

Have you ever heard of police discretion? It's one of the first things they are taught.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The state views 18 year-olds as adults, suitable for being conscripted into the armed forces in a time of war.

I'm 42, and they're still children to me. But I don't make and enforce the laws in this nation, either.

We are talking about references to a victim in a forum, not whether a person was legally allowed to vote.

In addition, as I said, "I have called them kids, teens, young men, men and young adults."

The claim anyone is using specific language here is a fantasy.

I referred to them as kids. Then I thought "teens" was a better choice since obviously they weren't children. But Johnson is 22, so teens wasn't right either. And writing young men or young adults get tedious. There's no conspiracy here, just an attempt to distract from the evidence accumulating against Wilson.

 

[Distracted1]

What does the audio tell one, other than the number and timing of the shots?

Ten shots were fired in about four seconds. Reports say that the autopsy found that six of them hit the target. There was a three second gap ( approximately ).

This can support a lot of conjecture. Perhaps officer Wilson fired an initial volley at Mr. Brown that mostly missed, but caused Mr. Brown to hesitate briefly, so the policeman stopped firing for two and a half seconds. Then Mr. Brown continued to move towards the officer causing him to begin firing again until Mr. Brown was thoroughly stopped.

I have no idea that is what happened, but it is consistent with the audio.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I...
It would be nice to see a real 3-D computer model illustrate the trajectory in a way better than a Hobbycraft skull and a hand held Sharpie could ever hope to do.
Thanks SG.

I agree but these are the two men who did the autopsy (Baden said the same thing) describing what they found. The fatal bullet entered the top of the skull and the trajectory was toward the face.

It's hard to see that trajectory occurring any way except Brown getting down or falling down on the ground. They believe that shot caused instant death and Brown fell as all his muscle tone ceased. The result was injuries to the side of his face from the fall.

That suggests he wasn't all the way on the ground. Wilson did not stand over Brown and shoot him. But 3 witnesses said he was trying to surrender and Wilson fired more shots killing him.

Look at your diagrams. Make one where the final shot enters the apex of the head and goes toward the face. I'd like to see the option(s) you come up with.

 

[Distracted1]

We are talking about references to a victim in a forum, not whether a person was legally allowed to vote.

In addition, as I said, "I have called them kids, teens, young men, men and young adults."

The claim anyone is using specific language here is a fantasy.

I referred to them as kids. Then I thought "teens" was a better choice since obviously they weren't children. But Johnson is 22, so teens wasn't right either. And writing young men or young adults get tedious. There's no conspiracy here, just an attempt to distract from the evidence accumulating against Wilson.

You could have chosen the unambiguous and short word " men ".

 

[Lerxst]

Have you ever heard of police discretion? It's one of the first things they are taught.

Of course I have. But I'm not the one arguing that I know better than the officer, that would be Ginger.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Mary Case does not like Parcells at all, though.

http://dailycaller.com/2014/08/21/st-louis-medical-examiner-slams-brown-family-hire/

Also, Case listed the cause of death as "GSW to the head and chest" according to the media.

http://www.kmov.com/special-coverag...l-gunshot-wounds-to-head-chest-271704311.html

And this contradicts their autopsy results how?

It's a credentials issue with Parcells. Some doctors don't like other professionals encroaching on their territory. Some of the first nurse practitioners were charged with practicing medicine without a license as physicians fought to keep their club exclusive. The nurses were exonerated and nurse practitioner became an established profession.

Parcells is a forensics professor. He teaches the stuff. I'm pretty sure he's competent. But regardless, he didn't do the autopsy alone, Dr Baden was also on the team.

Oh, and the chest wound, that doesn't contradict Baden's autopsy at all. The shot above the eyebrow traveled down into the chest. That was also considered likely fatal by Baden. He said it may not have been survivable, but the one to the top of the head likely dropped Brown injuring his face and was most likely the last shot.

 

[sadhatter]

No police that I know of. And no one carrying concealed that I know of.

It's a matter of luck, isn't it?

You seem to be condoning your soon starting bar fights. Unless you have a vastly different view of acting aggressively than i do. Please tell me I'm wrong, otherwise i don't really think i can keep up the conversation as our views on violence are so completely opposed.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Only if the witnesses for the Lourdes miracle do as well.

Want to open that can of worms?

But that analogy would need corroborating evidence of the Lourdes' miracle and there is none.

 

[Distracted1]

I agree but these are the two men who did the autopsy (Baden said the same thing) describing what they found. The fatal bullet entered the top of the skull and the trajectory was toward the face.

It's hard to see that trajectory occurring any way except Brown getting down or falling down on the ground. They believe that shot caused instant death and Brown fell as all his muscle tone ceased. The result was injuries to the side of his face from the fall.

That suggests he wasn't all the way on the ground. Wilson did not stand over Brown and shoot him. But 3 witnesses said he was trying to surrender and Wilson fired more shots killing him.

Look at your diagrams. Make one where the final shot enters the apex of the head and goes toward the face. I'd like to see the option(s) you come up with.

Am I misremembering, or did they claim that there were two head wounds, either of which could have been fatal and caused the victim to drop?

If Mr. Brown was dropping as the shot to the top of the head was fired, the trajectory needs no further explanation does it?

 

[Ammonitida]

I agree but these are the two men who did the autopsy (Baden said the same thing) describing what they found. The fatal bullet entered the top of the skull and the trajectory was toward the face.

It's hard to see that trajectory occurring any way except Brown getting down or falling down on the ground. They believe that shot caused instant death and Brown fell as all his muscle tone ceased. The result was injuries to the side of his face from the fall.

That suggests he wasn't all the way on the ground. Wilson did not stand over Brown and shoot him. But 3 witnesses said he was trying to surrender and Wilson fired more shots killing him.

Look at your diagrams. Make one where the final shot enters the apex of the head and goes toward the face. I'd like to see the option(s) you come up with.

As soon as a bullet hits bone, all bets are off in forensics, and in the case of a headshot, the bullet impacts bone almost immediately. In the Jodi Arias trial, the prosecution tried to make the case that the trajectory of the bullet that entered Travis Alexander's head indicated that he was in a sitting position when Jodi fired the shot while standing over him. But the examiner pointed out that this could have been the result of deflection from hitting bone.

 

[a_unique_person]

Thank you for articulating what I've been thinking for about 114 pages now.

It is entirely possible that Brown was a violent thug, and was still killed unjustly. It is also entirely possible that Wilson and every other cop in town are racist pricks, and this was still a justified this shooting. Until more actual evidence comes out about what actually happened, all this frothing and raging is pure self-indulgence.

I think it is ok to speculate, add long as it is acknowledged that this is mostly speculation. Brown or Wilson could be in the wrong, maybe both of them, I don't know yet.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Am I misremembering, or did they claim that there were two head wounds, either of which could have been fatal and caused the victim to drop?

If Mr. Brown was dropping as the shot to the top of the head was fired, the trajectory needs no further explanation does it?

I think you are confused.

The top of the head shot and the shot above the eyebrow both had the same trajectory and while the eyebrow entry was possibly not survivable, the shot on the top of the head was instantly fatal.

The eyebrow shot went in and exited the eye, then went back through jaw and entered the chest.

They both occurred with Brown's head in a down position, further than a bent head bull-rushing.

 

[Distracted1]

I think you are confused.

The top of the head shot and the shot above the eyebrow both had the same trajectory and while the eyebrow entry was possibly not survivable, the shot on the top of the head was instantly fatal.

The eyebrow shot went in and exited the eye, then went back through jaw and entered the chest.

They both occurred with Brown's head in a down position, further than a bent head bull-rushing.

The shot above the eyebrow had a back to front trajectory? How does that happen?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

As soon as a bullet hits bone, all bets are off in forensics, and in the case of a headshot, the bullet impacts bone almost immediately. In the Jodi Arias trial, the prosecution tried to make the case that the trajectory of the bullet that entered Travis Alexander's head indicated that he was in a sitting position when Jodi fired the shot while standing over him. But the examiner pointed out that this could have been the result of deflection from hitting bone.

Just going by what the pathologists said. You can assume there are parallels in all gunshots that hit bone. I know bullets do go all over the place.

Baden and Parcells said what they said and that is the evidence I have at the moment.