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Michael Brown Shooting

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Skeptic Ginger said:
No one would argue against that. Do you think we are because we don't think there's evidence Brown was a thug or a kid thug?
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I keep seeing this word bantered about.

Why is it relevant?

An entirely plausible scenario is that Brown was both a thug and he was killed in cold blood by Wilson. Of course, this remains to be seen.

Playing word games like this (and that goes for similar language used against Wilson) does nothing to shed light on what actually happened. What really happened, or as best as can be determined, is for the ongoing investigations and the courts to decide.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
I listened to both versions trying to hear something different but only those overlapping shots near the end is the only difference I detected.

What is it you think the changed sounds possibly mean if there?
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Below is a graphic of the shots.. ( Click to enlarge )


I have stretched 7 - 10 ( on the horizontal/time scale ) because 7 & 9 don't spike as sharply as 8 & 10; also 9 is really lost in the voiceover...

The amplitude/volume of 7 & 9 is about half of 1 -6, while 8 & 10 are still lower but not by as much..

With the shooting scene space being relatively wide open, it seems to me that the wide variation in the sound is more than likely the mike moving around or being interfered with, than the relative position of the gun..
Of course it could be a combination of both, but I don't see the outside acoustics playing the bigger role here...
 

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Jim_MDP said:
Sounds to me like 6+5. If that is the total rounds Wilson fired... he's gonna hang. Without video or defense eyewitnesses, it's too easy to picture all the worst of the accounts so far as matching that audio.

edit - sorry... that's if the audio is verified as legit.
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This scenario fits the facts;

"Six shots were fired at Brown who was walking away. One grazes his arm from behind. And he came back at the officer in an attempt to save his life, which in fact is what the officer was trying to make him do, and was executed with the next five shots."
 
Unabogie said:
He still doesn't sound like a troublemaker, based on your standards. I mean, had Mike Brown been arrested multiple times for violence against women? For violence against a DEA agent? For raping his cousin? For locking his mother out of the house? For kicking a family dog? For barricading himself in a house while police pounded on the door?

Oh, wait, no, those are just minor youthful indiscretions, depending on whom our subject happened to shoot and kill recently.
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Even if Brown was guilty of all of the above, it does not necessarily indicate that he is also guilty of assaulting Wilson in this particular situation.

It's amazing to me how much people here want to talk about all the other situations, hypothetical scenarios, and so on... without being willing to acknowledge the fundamental truth that what is really relevant here is the (absence of?) evidence of wrongdoing on Wilson's part in this particular incident.

People want to keep talking about how "Brown was a thug" or how "the Ferguson police are racist", blah blah blah. What is needed here is less heat and more light, folks. And that means the careful collection and analysis of evidence.

Sheesh - it's like I'm talking Skepticism 101 here :rolleyes:
 
plague311 said:
We let children smoke cigars, watch porn, vote, and drive? Damn...what a messed up country I live in.
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The state views 18 year-olds as adults, suitable for being conscripted into the armed forces in a time of war.

I'm 42, and they're still children to me. But I don't make and enforce the laws in this nation, either.
 
BenBurch said:
This scenario fits the facts;

"Six shots were fired at Brown who was walking away. One grazes his arm from behind. And he came back at the officer in an attempt to save his life, which in fact is what the officer was trying to make him do, and was executed with the next five shots."
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That scenario fits some of the information available thus far, more accurately.
As do countless other plausible scenarios.

What about the scenario you posit leaves one without reasonable doubt that Mr. Brown was " executed "?
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
And here I even linked to it referring to your diagrams.:)

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10190302#post10190302

It's hard not to gag at Grace's constant interruptions to make the interview about her, so I recommend skipping to minute 3:50 and watching the subsequent 2 minutes.
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I guess I couldn't stand to listen to her long enough to get to that point in the interview. Seriously, how does someone who sounds like that get on television in the first place? She's like a parody or something.
It would be nice to see a real 3-D computer model illustrate the trajectory in a way better than a Hobbycraft skull and a hand held Sharpie could ever hope to do.
Thanks SG.
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
I don't think it will. I see no evidence Dr Baden was dishonest or incompetent or that the county medical examiner is involved in any big conspiracy to protect the cop.

I think all three autopsies are going to be similar with the exception the other two will have access to the additional evidence Baden did not.
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Mary Case does not like Parcells at all, though.

http://dailycaller.com/2014/08/21/st-louis-medical-examiner-slams-brown-family-hire/

Also, Case listed the cause of death as "GSW to the head and chest" according to the media.

http://www.kmov.com/special-coverag...l-gunshot-wounds-to-head-chest-271704311.html
Dr. Mary Case, the St. Louis County Medical Examiner, said Brown suffered gunshot wounds to his head and chest. Case did not say which shot killed Brown, but said either had the capability to do so.
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Glad we've moved on from street widths...this new audio recording (finally something new to talk about!) makes me wonder: The three second gap, is this where Brown decides to charge Wilson?

MattusMaximus said:
The Central Scrutinizer said:
MattusMaximus said:
What really happened, or as best as can be determined, is for the ongoing investigations and the courts to decide.
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That is the position of a skeptic. Welcome to the club. :)
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Based upon what I've seen from all sides in this thread, it's a pretty small club.
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Well said...I'm still waiting for more evidence before my mind is made up. Isn't that what skeptics do?
 
MattusMaximus said:
It's amazing to me how much people here want to talk about all the other situations, hypothetical scenarios, and so on... without being willing to acknowledge the fundamental truth that what is really relevant here is the (absence of?) evidence of wrongdoing on Wilson's part in this particular incident.
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The witness accounts stating that Brown was shot while he was holding his hands in the air do not count as evidence?
 
MattusMaximus said:
Even if Brown was guilty of all of the above, it does not necessarily indicate that he is also guilty of assaulting Wilson in this particular situation.

It's amazing to me how much people here want to talk about all the other situations, hypothetical scenarios, and so on... without being willing to acknowledge the fundamental truth that what is really relevant here is the (absence of?) evidence of wrongdoing on Wilson's part in this particular incident.

People want to keep talking about how "Brown was a thug" or how "the Ferguson police are racist", blah blah blah. What is needed here is less heat and more light, folks. And that means the careful collection and analysis of evidence.

Sheesh - it's like I'm talking Skepticism 101 here :rolleyes:
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Thank you for articulating what I've been thinking for about 114 pages now.

It is entirely possible that Brown was a violent thug, and was still killed unjustly. It is also entirely possible that Wilson and every other cop in town are racist pricks, and this was still a justified this shooting. Until more actual evidence comes out about what actually happened, all this frothing and raging is pure self-indulgence.
 
Skeptical Greg said:
Below is a graphic of the shots.. ( Click to enlarge )


I have stretched 7 - 10 ( on the horizontal/time scale ) because 7 & 9 don't spike as sharply as 8 & 10; also 9 is really lost in the voiceover...

The amplitude/volume of 7 & 9 is about half of 1 -6, while 8 & 10 are still lower but not by as much..

With the shooting scene space being relatively wide open, it seems to me that the wide variation in the sound is more than likely the mike moving around or being interfered with, than the relative position of the gun..
Of course it could be a combination of both, but I don't see the outside acoustics playing the bigger role here...
Click to expand...
So you are trying to discount this audio as a fake now?

A right wing blog claiming without evidence that Wilson had an orbital fracture, no problem.

But a lawyer coming forward with the background on the audio and a report it is now in the hands of the FBI, that, you question is a fake.

:rolleyes:

You might want to listen to the news shows the lawyer has been on explaining how she came across the audio and what happened next before you start dismissing it.

Essentially her client told her about the roommate's recording. The lawyer talked it over with her husband, also a lawyer, and approached the roommate saying it could be important. The roommate agreed to turn the audio over to the FBI which they did. While he wants to remain anonymous for now, he has agreed to testify about the audio if needed. The lawyer said the man would be a very credible witness.

She's white, BTW.

These people have names and faces, they aren't anonymous sources on a right wing blog or a FB page of a friend of a friend of Wilson. The evidence is tangible.

Could things turn out to not be what they seem? Sure. Will they? I doubt it. There are now 3 witnesses, an autopsy and an audio recording of the shooting that all correlate.

Will Wilson get off anyway? Now that is unfortunately all too likely.
 
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MattusMaximus said:
Even if Brown was guilty of all of the above, it does not necessarily indicate that he is also guilty of assaulting Wilson in this particular situation.

It's amazing to me how much people here want to talk about all the other situations, hypothetical scenarios, and so on... without being willing to acknowledge the fundamental truth that what is really relevant here is the (absence of?) evidence of wrongdoing on Wilson's part in this particular incident.

People want to keep talking about how "Brown was a thug" or how "the Ferguson police are racist", blah blah blah. What is needed here is less heat and more light, folks. And that means the careful collection and analysis of evidence.

Sheesh - it's like I'm talking Skepticism 101 here :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

We do have evidence of wrongdoing in the form of eyewitnesses who saw Wilson shoot Brown as he was surrendering. That some "skeptics" choose to completely dismiss these witnesses as irrelevant or fraudsters doesn't make them go away. The forensics closely matches what these witnesses say, and now that we have this audio, it even further buttresses the witnesses version of events. On the other hand, we have a bunch of people who just really love it when they get a chance to stick to "Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson" and make jokes about dead kids. I know which side I'd consider "skeptical" and it isn't them.
 
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