Michael Brown Shooting

[Skeptic Ginger]

We have one data point: a sketch from a preliminary autopsy report.
We have stories and anecdotes and rumors of other data points.

Before we start asserting that the slope of the line must be positive or must be negative, we could wait for more data points. A forensic report about the car's interior. A final autopsy report. A forensic report about the dead man's clothes (looking for powder marks). An official statement from Wilson. An official statement from the local police.

We could wait for those things, or we could spend another 50 pages bickering.


..................
I think the most fitting thing for me to do is quote the last line of Mark Twain's "War Prayer."

It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.​

I like how you totally discount three eye witness reports.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...Wilson wasn't one of the officers arresting reporters in a McDonald's.

I see. I'll go back and re-read your post given that context.

 

[MattusMaximus]

I like how you totally discount three eye witness reports.

I prefer to discount all eye-witness reports (both pro-Wilson and pro-Brown) for the reasons previously mentioned: eye-witness testimony sucks as evidence.

 

[William Parcher]

Pew Research polling

Stark Racial Divisions in Reactions to Ferguson Police Shooting

Blacks and whites have sharply different reactions to the police shooting of an unarmed teen in Ferguson, Mo., and the protests and violence that followed. Blacks are about twice as likely as whites to say that the shooting of Michael Brown “raises important issues about race that need to be discussed.” Wide racial differences also are evident in opinions about of whether local police went too far in the aftermath of Brown’s death, and in confidence in the investigations into the shooting.

Fully 65% of African Americans say the police have gone too far in responding to the shooting’s aftermath. Whites are divided: 33% say the police have gone too far, 32% say the police response has been about right, while 35% offer no response.

Whites also are nearly three times as likely as blacks to express at least a fair amount of confidence in the investigations into the shooting. About half of whites (52%) say they have a great deal or fair amount of confidence in the investigations, compared with just 18% of blacks. Roughly three-quarters of blacks (76%) have little or no confidence in the investigations, with 45% saying they have no confidence at all...

There are lots more poll stats in the link.

 

[MattusMaximus]

Only in that I thought you were excusing and normalizing it as others in the thread are. As if it was OK to panic because the job can be expected to have moments like this.

I'm not saying I'm surprised Wilson lost control, if he did. I'm saying the job requires he remain in control in situations like this. If he didn't, it's negligence.

Ah, I see.

We're in complete agreement.

Thanks for clarifying

 

[MattusMaximus]

Pew Research polling

There are lots more poll stats in the link.

No surprises there.

 

[MattusMaximus]

I thought PTSD comes after a traumatic event. Are you saying it happens during the event (Wilson interaction with Brown)?

No. But a cop suffering from PTSD due to previous stress on the job can freak out, potentially in the course of doing his/her job. This is especially possible in a police department that doesn't have the proper resources to keep tabs on the psychological health of its cops. And, from what I've read, the Ferguson police department isn't a terribly well-funded institution.

 

[Distracted1]

Nope, more straw.

I've not read anyone discounting it because it was third hand, only that that means we shouldn't assume it is accurate.

I've only seen pointing out where it is inconsistent with the autopsy, the witness accounts, and the suggestion it sounds like it exaggerates Brown's threat.

Inconsistent with the inconsistent witness accounts?

The three, supposedly corroborative witness accounts which you and others were pounding on so heavily a few days ago as nearly irrefutable evidence that Officer Wilson is a cold bloodier killer, and you are now back pedaling frantically on by claiming eyewitness testimony is unreliable evidence as they fall apart. That eyewitness testimony?

Funny you didn't bring up the unreliability of eyewitnesses until someone posted a link that might indicate that there are numerous eyewitnesses who are ready to say Mr. Brown was the aggressor in this confrontation. Why don't you double down on how certain you are that the eyewitnesses so far show how the policeman clearly murdered Mr. Brown, since nothing else shows that conclusively at all, that might pay off for you later.

Of course, you might always fall back on your " faked evidence " loophole. I told you you should have highlighted that in red when you had the chance.

 

[johnny karate]

That was presented days ago.
Seems pretty compelling to me, but it has been discounted here as not coming from a "real"
witness.
Still counts as evidence that Mr. Brown was not" executed " in cold blood.

It was was discounted - as it should have been - because the people heard speaking at no point actually identify themselves as witnesses. We have no idea if they are describing something they actually saw, or something someone else claimed to have seen and told them about, or if they're just offering conjecture.

But of course you knew this already because it's been explained to you many times.

 

[Distracted1]

It was was discounted - as it should have been - because the people heard speaking at no point actually identify themselves as witnesses. We have no idea if they are describing something they actually saw, or something someone else claimed to have seen and told them about, or if they're just offering conjecture.

But of course you knew this already because it's been explained to you many times.

In other words, it was discounted as not coming from " real" witnesses.

Sorry, I forgot about all those times you " explained" that to me ( oh, what would I do without your explanations ) perhaps you could number one of the posts where you set me straight, so I can review my lesson.

 

[johnny karate]

In other words, it was discounted as not coming from " real" witnesses.

Here's a link to the definition of the word "witness":

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/witness

Please let me know how the people overheard in the video fit that definition.

Sorry, I forgot about all those times you " explained" that to me ( oh, what would I do without your explanations ) perhaps you could number one of the posts where you set me straight, so I can review my lesson.

Maybe just bookmark this lesson so it doesn't need to be repeated. Or perhaps just exercise a little common sense and save other people the trouble of explaining these things to you.

 

[Travis]

Well, that's illogical.

Logic left this thread a long time ago. I was hoping to draw attention to that.

I'd be curious to see that too. If Wilson shot Brown as punishment for theft or even assaulting the shopkeeper, he should be convicted of murder and sentenced to death - the aggravating factor being subversion of Brown's due process rights under color of law.

Please cite the post that says what you say in the first sentence of this one.

I think the basis for that argument might be the seemingly prevalent presumption in this thread that once it was determined Brown had just come from committing a robbery, the police officer who shot and killed him was probably justified in doing so.

This is what I was trying to draw attention to.

Facts about what happened were, and still are, sparse. Yet the robbery thing led multiple posters to declare the shooting justified with no other new information being presented.

Think about that for just one second. What other conclusion am I supposed to draw from that?

I think it was a comedy post.

The tip-off is...


LOL.

Satire is needed sometimes.

Amazing how many people don't get that point.
IMHO, a lot of people invested heavily and got emotionally involved in the idea that Brown was a totally innocent kid and they just cannot give that up.

Exactly. The robbery was, and is, immaterial to the shooting. It was a huge diversion from actually relevant facts.

I haven't seen much of this at all. As a matter of fact, in my view it is quite the opposite. I'm seeing people trying to minimize and discount the crime we do know Brown committed, apparently out of fear of being labeled a racist.

Or out of good knowledge that it is irrelevant.

It might not be that difficult, assuming they get an indictment. Brown's companion's testimony won't be much help. The two women witnesses should provide a pretty solid narrative. I think it will boil down to: a) is Officer Wilson going to claim he shot Brown because Brown was charging him, b) can the forensics establish whether Brown was running or standing still when hit and c) did Wilson have the legal right to use deadly force on a man charging him if the man is unarmed.

My personal view is that it would take an extraordinarily unique situation for any cop to justify shooting an unarmed man. Unless we get evidence that Brown is really the hero from Taken and the cop had no self defense training I'm in the camp that the shooting is unjustified as a given.

Cops should not be shooting unarmed people, bullrush, mouthing off, charging or whatever. Maybe this means more cops die. I don't care. They are there supposedly to serve and sacrifice for us which they largely stopped doing long, long ago.

Some people seem to be arguing that this was race-inspired murder, no matter what. Others seem to be arguing that the cops are justified, no matter what. Very few seem to be observing that the fact that such an incident could not only occur but inflame people to the point of riots indicates long-standing, systemic problems with the way these incidents are handled in general. Instead, we seems to have gotten used to the idea that the police and the citizens are naturally opposed camps. Most of the opinions, here and elsewhere, seem to take this completely for granted, and the only difference seems to be the side you are on in the warfare.

I'm glad someone brought this up.

I long ago stopped thinking of cops as serving the people. They now only serve their own institution. The people, in their mind, are the enemy that needs to be put in its place.

So, yes, the police are at war with the people they are ostensibly serving. And in that scenario I throw myself down as on the side of the PEOPLE and not the quasi-fascist nepotism riddled abuse factories known as law enforcement.

Does anyone in this thread actually believe Wilson strolled up to Brown, who was in complete surrender position and simply shot him in the head?

This is what I've thought since the beginning but was waiting for evidence to make up my mind. The autopsy seems to support this idea.

Cops are sociopaths constantly looking for their next quick fix of abuse and bullying. Why would such a thing, therefore, be surprising?

Yet, that seems to have been the prime narrative throughout the country since this case first gained attention.

Yes, because people no longer trust their police. See my thoughts above on this.

You know full well that's not how this works XD

Anyway, the thing I find strange is where the shots are clustered - namely, on Brown's right side, except for one at the top of his head. The only people trained to shoot for the head are people who play video games, everyone who handles a real firearm is trained to aim for the chest - it's the largest target, and will take out someone who is attacking you, thus it's by far the best place to aim for. And we do not know what hand Wilson favors, but we do know that most people favor their right hand. So why are the bullet wounds on *Brown's* right? The idea that Brown put his head down and charged at Wilson is absurd, obviously - he didn't have horns on his head, after all - but we don't know when that wound was made. he could have been shot, and then fallen over, or have been shot while surrendering on his knees.

I see nothing here that helps Wilson - but also nothing that damns him. And that's what I was expecting, and why I said that we really need to see Davis' account of the shooting.

To me the autopsy seemed to show he was on his knees with this hands raised when the cop unloaded into him. Did the cop do this because he's just another typical psychopathic law enforcement officer or because he snapped? We shall see eventually.

 

[William Parcher]

No. But a cop suffering from PTSD due to previous stress on the job can freak out, potentially in the course of doing his/her job. This is especially possible in a police department that doesn't have the proper resources to keep tabs on the psychological health of its cops. And, from what I've read, the Ferguson police department isn't a terribly well-funded institution.

Wilson had the opportunity to not stop for Brown and Johnson. Would PTSD and job stress cause a cop to just reduce his engagement with anybody to a bare minimum?

It's possible that Wilson overreacted to the situation with Brown. But if Brown tried to get his gun and then soon afterwards tried to run at Wilson then it might not have been an overreaction and PTSD had nothing to do with it.

 

[LTC8K6]

Cops are sociopaths constantly looking for their next quick fix of abuse and bullying. Why would such a thing, therefore, be surprising?

Wow.

 

[MattusMaximus]

Wilson had the opportunity to not stop for Brown and Johnson. Would PTSD and job stress cause a cop to just reduce his engagement with anybody to a bare minimum?

It's possible that Wilson overreacted to the situation with Brown. But if Brown tried to get his gun and then soon afterwards tried to run at Wilson then it might not have been an overreaction and PTSD had nothing to do with it.

I don't know, because I'm not a psychologist who treats PTSD patients.

Are you?

 

[Distracted1]

Here's a link to the definition of the word "witness":

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/witness

Please let me know how the people overheard in the video fit that definition.



Maybe just bookmark this lesson so it doesn't need to be repeated. Or perhaps just exercise a little common sense and save other people the trouble of explaining these things to you.

Wow Johnny, according to the dictionary definition of witness, these guys can't be conclusively shown to fit the definition!
But they sure are talking like they saw something Johnny, why in the world might they be doing that?

Willikers! I guess these gents just aren't " real" witnesses at all, reckon I should just ignore anythin they say, Johnny, just like you schooled me to.

 

[casebro]

Wow Johnny, according to the dictionary definition of witness, these guys can't be conclusively shown to fit the definition!
But they sure are talking like they saw something Johnny, why in the world might they be doing that?

Willikers! I guess these gents just aren't " real" witnesses at all, reckon I should just ignore anythin they say, Johnny, just like you schooled me to.

Hey, maybe they were Photo Shopped in!

 

[Ammonitida]

Wow.

Yeah. And I thought Skeptic Ginger was extremely biased......

 

[trustbutverify]

I prefer to discount all eye-witness reports (both pro-Wilson and pro-Brown) for the reasons previously mentioned: eye-witness testimony sucks as evidence.

Particularly in a situation so politically/racially charged, where traitors and loyalists (on both sides) will be defined by these testimonies.

 

[Distracted1]

Well Travis, the rest of your post kind of makes the first claim about logic leaving the thread a self- fulfilling prophesy.