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Michael Brown Shooting

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tyr_13 said:
While I do skip some posters posts so maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen anyone argue the highlighted. The arguments of taking a skeptical eye on eyewitness testimony has been along the traditional lines of the weaknesses in eyewitness testimony.
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Then there are definitely some posts you have missed.

Both the statements of unidentified people we don't even know are witnesses and the hearsay of a friend of Officer Wilson have been introduced and defended in this thread as evidence supporting the belief that Brown's shooting was justified.

The only posts I've seen discrediting eye witnesses were in reference to the two witness who claim Brown was in the act of surrendering when he was shot.
 
Granted that nobody likes the taste of crow. I'll willingly admit to being wrong if the coming reports show the cop wasn't justified in shooting.

Anyone wanna join that group, the potential "I was wrong" list? Sign up!
 
tyr_13 said:
If you can find someone saying he deserved to die because of the robbery (no one besides defenders are saying he simply 'stole'), then I agree that person is wrong.
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We had one poster who strongly implied that, but he was also spouting about how whites are genetically superior to blacks, so he can be safely ignored.


He might have been a violent thug and the shooting still unjustified.
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Amazing how many people don't get that point.
IMHO, a lot of people invested heavily and got emotionally involved in the idea that Brown was a totally innocent kid and they just cannot give that up.
 
William Parcher said:
Those should count as variable witness statements which you did not include in your list made yesterday. They don't have to be accurate, the point is that they are different.

....
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And I would expect the cops to track them down and get sworn statements as to what was recorded on the news. NOW it IS evidence.

And the cops are protecting those witnesses by keeping it all secret. Maybe even taking them for a trip to visit relatives- out of Ferguson. You know there are people who saw that newscast that can ID them.

Anybody got a link to the 'cast?
 
casebro said:
No. But it would give him a reason to expect himself in big trouble, and proactively charge the cop as the cop was exiting the car. Especially if he was on some kind of belligerence enhancing drug. But it looks like this will all be settled by the grand jury before toxicology come back.
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Agree. Let's see what the reports reveal and whether or not he "proactively charge[d] the cop as the cop was exiting the car".
 
johnny karate said:
Then there are definitely some posts you have missed.

Both the statements of unidentified people we don't even know are witnesses and the hearsay of a friend of Officer Wilson have been introduced and defended in this thread as evidence supporting the belief that Brown's shooting was justified.

The only posts I've seen discrediting eye witnesses were in reference to the two witness who claim Brown was in the act of surrendering when he was shot.
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Where? I saw some statements introduced, but not as supporting evidence. If it's something Skeptic Tank said, I tend to skip his posts.
 
dudalb said:
We had one poster who strongly implied that, but he was also spouting about how whites are genetically superior to blacks, so he can be safely ignored.
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That explains how I missed it.


Amazing how many people don't get that point.
IMHO, a lot of people invested heavily and got emotionally involved in the idea that Brown was a totally innocent kid and they just cannot give that up.
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Yup, while it wouldn't surprise me if some others won't believe it if the evidence comes back the shooting was unjustified because they invest in the idea he's a no good thug.
 
William Parcher said:
Those should count as variable witness statements which you did not include in your list made yesterday. They don't have to be accurate, the point is that they are different.
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We don't that they were witnesses.

I've made this point over and over again.

I'm not sure why it still needs to be repeated to people posting on a skeptic's forum.

We have...

Brown was trying to surrender and got shot.

Brown was charging at the cop and got shot.
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Furthermore, those unidentified people who we don't know were actually witness never said Brown was "charging" the cop. That was a conclusion drawn from what they actually did say.

So we've gone that much further down the rabbit hole in order to believe the thing we really want to believe.
 
Monketey Ghost said:
Granted that nobody likes the taste of crow. I'll willingly admit to being wrong if the coming reports show the cop wasn't justified in shooting.

Anyone wanna join that group, the potential "I was wrong" list? Sign up!
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As a person who hasn't drawn a conclusion one way or the other, my future diet will be enjoyably crow-free.
 
Monketey Ghost said:
Granted that nobody likes the taste of crow. I'll willingly admit to being wrong if the coming reports show the cop wasn't justified in shooting.

Anyone wanna join that group, the potential "I was wrong" list? Sign up!
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I'm well documented admitting when I'm wrong here, so I have no problem with it.
 
johnny karate said:
Just take a look at my previous exchange.
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I did. It was not consistent with, 'I see that some people have decided that since Mike Brown was not a "gentle giant", they can simply dismiss all of the witnesses as liars and proclaim that his life was forfeit once he stole those cigarettes.'
 
One thing this thread clearly illustrates is, something black leaders have mentioned, within a certain segment of whites their hostility towards young black men is off the charts. The malevolence in this thread is disturbing -- though not surprising -- and the people expressing it seem to be doing so without really being aware their emotions are on display. In fact this is one of the most emotional threads I've seen in a long long time. There was even a furor in this thread last night when I referred to Brown as a teenager.

There are good reasons to suspect the shooting may have been unjustified. The fact Brown was unarmed, the fact he was apparently at some distance from the officer when the final shots were fired, the fact three witnesses have all given accounts that are relatively consistent and they're describing what was essentially an execution. Plus the fact the Ferguson PD has a troubled reputation.

The reaction around most of the country seems to be deeply troubled by what happened. Instead here we get post after post ridiculing any notion that there might be a problem with this. Some of the posters here I do consider them to be expressing what are basically racist opinions. I think most reasonable people would.
 
casebro said:
Lets say we are all half right.

What if Brown charged the car, committing an assault on the officer. Officer takes one shot in the car, in self defense, then attempts to chase down the felon. Shoots at fleeing violent felon. Suspect, turns, hands up..... cop continues to fire "in hot blood".
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That would probably be a manslaughter charge.


Guaranteed, the Missouri National Guard is going to be put on alert the day the indictments come down.
 
tyr_13 said:
I did. It was not consistent with, 'I see that some people have decided that since Mike Brown was not a "gentle giant", they can simply dismiss all of the witnesses as liars and proclaim that his life was forfeit once he stole those cigarettes.'
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I'm not sure how that follows from this exchange:
johnny karate said:
Then there are definitely some posts you have missed.

Both the statements of unidentified people we don't even know are witnesses and the hearsay of a friend of Officer Wilson have been introduced and defended in this thread as evidence supporting the belief that Brown's shooting was justified.

The only posts I've seen discrediting eye witnesses were in reference to the two witness who claim Brown was in the act of surrendering when he was shot.
Click to expand...
tyr_13 said:
Where? I saw some statements introduced, but not as supporting evidence. If it's something Skeptic Tank said, I tend to skip his posts.
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Cylinder,

The "preliminary hearing" I was referring to in the Zimmerman case is probably more accurately described as a pretrial hearing or ---Get Ready --- a Stand Your Ground hearing. I looked it up, and Zimmerman actually had to tell the judge he was waiving his right to have one. The hearing would have been an opportunity for him to convince the judge he had acted in self-defense. If he did that successfully, he would have walked and there would have been no trial. But, the burden of proof is reversed in this type of proceeding, and Zimmerman would have had to prove his case to the judge.

I was wondering aloud if they have this kind of hearing available in Missouri.

http://rt.com/usa/zimmerman-martin-stand-ground-683/
 
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