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Is that what motivates people to keep on with the '**** the police' posts, and continued talking about how all police are asses, pricks, power-tripping, racist, race-traitor, violent, jack-booted thugs?

Most of the people I know with this attitude are people that are pissed because the cops keep preventing them from breaking laws at their leisure. Got pulled over? Just a jackass cop hassling a working man instead of catching "real criminals".
 
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but the fact that Brown died quickly after this punch took place means that there wouldn't be any bruising or swelling on his hand. Blood needs to keep flowing for those things to occur.

Steve S

Referring to no one on this forum, but if someone purported to be a nurse, you would think they might know this.
 
There are obviously two sides here. On the one hand are the people who are suspicious the shooting was truly justifiable and on the other hand the people who are convinced it was justifiable. One side seems to be primarily arguing while the other side seems to spend as much time taunting and ridiculing as arguing. That says something about the two different mindsets I think.

Agreed.
 
I don't think anyone in the thread argued it, but the mother of Michael Brown did say:

"McSpadden said she doesn't understand why police didn't subdue her son with a club or Taser instead of shooting him, and she said the officer involved should be fired and prosecuted.

"I would like to see him go to jail with the death penalty," she said Sunday at the site of the shooting, fighting back tears."​

Some have attributed the same or a similar quote to the father as well. That would require a conviction of murder in the first degree.

Just as I suspected - she's interested in revenge, not justice.
 
You think?. I see the positive assertion from the beginning of the thread that the shooting was unjustifiable.
The skeptic position from that assertion is that the officer involved might not have murdered the man. No?

Responding to # 2289
 
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Then why does Wilson shoot him in that scenario?

Privilege.

Racism.

Patriarchy.

The fairy princess told him to.

To the idiots (on Facebook, no one on this forum) who still cling to the "execution" fantasy, one wonders why he didn't also "execute" the other black guy who was standing there? You get two negroes for the price of one, and also eliminate a witness.

Things that make you go "hmmmmmm"?
 
Yes, yes, and yes. (I might have missed an additional 'yes' in there.)

People can, and indeed do, use factual labels in order to build a narrative and either enhance or deny perspective. Some could (and do) call Brown a 'violent felon' in order to disparage his character so as to imply he deserved what he got regardless of the facts of the actual shooting. Others could (and do) call him a teenager in order to marginalize his agency in all the events. Others use them as possible explanations for state of mind and establish range of likely actions based on past actions. In short, there are valid and invalid uses of even factual labels. Some people are even using 'black', 'white', and 'cop' in these same ways. So people trying to build one narrative will get push back by people using factual labels to either deconstruct that narrative, or build one of their own. It's not all poisoning the well and ad hom or the like, but some of it is. We have to do the hard thing and actually take the arguments on their own merit, and not dismiss them because there are invalid similar arguments.

I'd call the police who arrested the reporters in the McDonalds many impolite things, thugs included. I've seen police in total called all that and worse. Hell, I saw someone unironically using the argument, 'I can't lock someone in my basement, so why can the police?' They didn't get the joke. There are a few people I have as Facebook friends who are constantly posting anti-police things. Some are fair complaints, but most are ******* insane (yes I need to trim my list). I suggest that people who believe that the police are generally all thugs, bullies, dumb, and racist go out and become police to change that. Somehow, they don't support that suggestion. But these invalid complaints about the police in total don't excuse the actual institutional problems that too many departments have, nor the large criminal justice issues this nation faces.

Of course the reason there isn't as much discussion on these police is because next to no one is defending them. We don't have people calling them gentle giants, or great family men, or the like to excuse their bad behavior. We have had I think one poster here defend their actions and try to minimize them. I disagree with that, but it's also not going to generate much discussion.

EDIT: The point I was making at any rate was that one could object to the way a label is being used, but to object because some don't consider a factual label factual is pointless.

I've had similar experiences with those programs. I cannot wonder sometimes if Facebook, Twitter and the like isn't fueled by 'outrage' (and contributes to it) and found that study that indicated they could change the 'moods' of people (what an appropriate headline!) by manipulating their news feed disturbing for a number of reasons. Also the study suggesting that strident opinions polarize people's positions made me wonder about the effect this technology is having on people's perceptions. The limits on discourse with those programs favors boiling everything down to terms like 'violent thug' or 'fascist pigs' and if it's true to a certain extent it can be extrapolated to the extreme, even though there's definitely a difference between what Michael Brown did and a truly violent encounter and there's certainly worse police abuses of power than what happened to the Washington Post reporters.

None of them should have gotten five to ten years in prison in my opinion, though all of them did wrong and it's in the best interest of our society that their behavior be dissuaded. In Michael Brown's case as was pointed out through a snarky but valid comment, had he not been shot by police as a result of this one, the next shopkeeper may have anyway.
 
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One Mississippi......two Mississippi.......nana nana boo boo! ....one Mississippi......" Freeze" ( possibly )..........bang. Bang. Bang. Bang. Bang. Bang.

Ten seconds?
PATHOLOGY OF BLUNT FORCE TRAUMATIC INJURY; WILLIAM A. COX, M.D.; FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST/NEUROPATHOLOGIST
The initial reaction to blunt force traumatic injury is dilatation of capillaries, which is immediately followed by a reduction in the rate of the flow of blood. In addition the capillaries develop an increase in permeability, which results in the passing of plasma and cells into the traumatized tissue. ...
There is an important point to remember and that is neither margination, nor the beginning emigration of leukocytes, is conclusive evidence that the traumatic injury occurred before death. This is due to the fact the death of the victim does not coincide with the death of the individual cells within the tissues. The reality is that the cells composing the tissues are capable of vital reaction after the person has died, albeit for a limited period-of-time. As an example, Carscadden published a paper in 1927, in which he observed margination of leukocytes in the sinusoids of postmortem injuries to the liver up-to 30 minutes following cessation of cardiac activity



If Wilson has medical evidence to support his claim that his face was injured during the confrontation, and also claims that this injury came from one of Brown's fists, I will be inclined to believe him, and not your silly alternate scenario (that the door hit his face which is not supported by any of your infallible "witnesses"). This stuff about "he would have had microscopic injuries on his knuckles that the examiner would have certainly detected" sounds a whole lot like "shaky forensics". Any empirical evidence to support your belief?

Ah, don't bother. Unless there's a face print from Wilson on that door, then I will never believe your scenario, EVER!!!!!!!!!!!
Goodness, you should calm down, it's just a forum.

I don't know how Wilson's facial injury occurred. I'm not sure it matters how his face was hit. It would have likely happened in the altercation that all the witnesses who were there early enough said occurred before Wilson got out of the car.

I'm only saying the autopsy did not show a fist injury that corroborates a punch to the face. If it happened, it happened. But if Wilson is exaggerating the threat he was under, like the "went for my gun" claim, then it becomes significant.



Why charging like a bull? If he was falling forward, the top of the head would have ended up in the space that was previously occupied by the forehead, that Wilson observed when he fired the gun.

Do you need a diagram?
So we are back to Brown tripping?

Tripping or surrendering, Wilson should have stopped shooting at that point.



Have you ever seen a hand with a fresh gunshot wound?
Was there no adjacent trauma that might have obscured other swelling or injuries?

Was Brown's hand wound clean, with no adjacent trauma? Any bones broken ( shattered ) ?
The injury to the right palm was a deep gouge. No injury to the back of the hand was seen in the autopsy.

Do we know yet if Wilson's right or left side of his face was injured? That would be useful to know.
 
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PATHOLOGY OF BLUNT FORCE TRAUMATIC INJURY; WILLIAM A. COX, M.D.; FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST/NEUROPATHOLOGIST



Goodness, you should calm down, it's just a forum.

I don't know how Wilson's facial injury occurred. I'm not sure it matters how his face was hit. It would have likely happened in the altercation that all the witnesses who were there early enough said occurred before Wilson got out of the car.

I'm only saying the autopsy did not show a fist injury that corroborates a punch to the face. If it happened, it happened. But if Wilson is exaggerating the threat he was under, like the "went for my gun" claim, then it becomes significant.



So we are back to Brown tripping?

Tripping or surrendering, Wilson should have stopped shooting at that point.



The injury to the right palm was a deep gouge. No injury to the back of the hand was seen in the autopsy.

Do we know yet if Wilson's right or left side of his face was injured? That would be useful to know.
Thank you for doing that research. Now all you need to do to prove your assertion is demonstrate that punching someone always results to blunt force trauma to the fist under the conditions of that study.
 
So we are back to Brown tripping?

We? While I haven't suggested that he tripped, do you have evidence that he didn't?

You were suggesting Wilson couldn't have rightly recalled shooting at Brown's forehead when the wound ended up on top of his head.

I explained how that could happen. What evidence do you have that Wilson is lying about this?

Tripping or surrendering, Wilson should have stopped shooting at that point.
What evidence do you have that he did either?
 
I saw some news headline that the feds are being called in to do another autopsy of Brown. Is this accurate? If so, why? What's the issue with the first (local, I assume) autopsy?
 
I mean I'm totally open to the idea that the officer just lost his head and started shooting, due to rage or adrenaline or panic or whatever causes a person to do that. But I guess I don't understand why the alternative - that Brown did something in the moment that the officer at least perceived was a threatening move - has been dismissed out of hand.
Not so. Dismissed for lack of evidence starting with 3 credible and consistent witnesses.

Notice the same people that dismiss the black eye witnesses are the same people that are certain any young black male with a petty criminal record is evidence they are capable of far worse.

I guess it's because most of the witnesses at the scene (who've spoken to the media so far - I only know of three and one was Brown's accomplice in the robbery) don't mention a last-second move by Brown to lunge at the officer?

I guess I'm biased in favor of the police because "shooting in a blind panic" seems more plausible to me than "shooting in cold blood." Most police officers go their entire careers without ever shooting someone, it's not a decision you take lightly. It's certainly the first guy Wilson has ever shot, or we'd have heard all about it by now.
I certainly don't think it's murder in the first or second where premeditation is required. I've seen no credible evidence of that. But it's the duty of a police officer to control his temper, and to shoot purposefully, not blindly in some rage.

Fine, that's not easy. But it is still their duty and that makes this likely some version of negligent homicide, with excessive use of force.
 
Also, regarding Brown as a "thug", I would point out this possibility:

It is entirely possible that he was *both* a thug and that he was shot in cold blood. One does not necessarily preclude the other.

Just pointing out a potentially different angle, in case someone else hadn't.
 
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