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Michael Brown Shooting

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Distracted1 said:
Thank you for doing that research. Now all you need to do to prove your assertion is demonstrate that punching someone always results to blunt force trauma to the fist under the conditions of that study.
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Never mind. The first page of the study you posted using a boxer turning away as he is punched as an example of how " blunt force trauma " is avoided.

Still, thanks for taking the argument seriously.
 
MattusMaximus said:
I saw some news headline that the feds are being called in to do another autopsy of Brown. Is this accurate? If so, why? What's the issue with the first (local, I assume) autopsy?
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It didn't get the results the family wanted.

ETA: I suspect it's CYA. The St Louis County ME - Mary Case - is very well respected. Even the family's expert said so.
 
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MattusMaximus said:
Also, regarding Brown as a "thug", I would point out this possibility:

It is entirely possible that he was *both* a thug and that he was shot in cold blood. One does not necessarily preclude the other.

Just pointing out a potentially different angle, in case someone else hadn't.
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Of course. Any skeptic would be open to this possibility.

Equally plausible is he was a thug (or not) and the shooting was justified. Any skeptic would be open to this possibility. Non-skeptics struggle with this concept.
 
BenBurch said:
I dismiss the "threat" idea out of hand because the coup de grace was delivered to a prone person with his chin tucked to his chest and abrasions to his face indicating he was face down.....
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No, that's not what Baden said. He said the face wounds were evidence of, and most likely caused by, Brown dropping like dead weight the instant the top of the head wound/brain injury killed him.

I've seen videos of people dropping when the fatal shot occurred and they do drop just like that. People don't continue moving with any muscle movement like a beheaded snake's body continues to wriggle. If there is any momentum, gravity tends to override it pretty instantly.
 
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Brainster said:
I have not seen any affirmative statement by the persons performing the various autopsies that Brown's hand did not show any evidence of capillary ruptures. Have you?
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Dr Baden specified there was no evidence of any hand wounds in a direct answer to a question that was asking about evidence of a struggle or fight for the gun.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
No, that's not what Baden said. He said the face wounds were evidence of, and most likely caused by, Brown dropping like dead weight the instant the top of the head wound/brain injury killed him.

I've seen videos of people dropping when the fatal shot occurred and they do drop just like that. People don't continue moving with any muscle movement like a beheaded snake's body continues to wriggle. If there is any momentum, gravity tends to override it pretty instantly.
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Gravity should be charged as an accessory then.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
No, that's not what Bader said. He said the face wounds were evidence of, and most likely caused by, Brown dropping like dead weight the instant the top of the head wound/brain injury killed him.

I've seen videos of people dropping when the fatal shot occurred and they do drop just like that. People don't continue moving with any muscle movement like a beheaded snake's body continues to wriggle. If there is any momentum, gravity tends to override it pretty instantly.
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So, the position of his body on the pavement precludes him being on his knees with his hands raised when he was shot in the top of the head, does it not? It certainly seems that way to me. (This is assuming the body wasn't moved after he died.)
 
Brainster said:
I saw Brown's attorney claiming that there was an exit wound through the eye, but that does not appear to be what Professor Parcells said in his press conference:

"We've got one that entered just above the right eyebrow..."
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You really should watch a replay of the press conference so you stop repeating this kind of mistake.

Eye wound starts at the eyebrow, exits the eye, enters and exits the jaw before entering the chest.

That is what Parcells described.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
I've seen videos of people dropping when the fatal shot occurred and they do drop just like that. People don't continue moving with any muscle movement like a beheaded snake's body continues to wriggle. If there is any momentum, gravity tends to override it pretty instantly.
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If a person is standing still when they get a fatal head shot they tend to crumple into a pile with limbs askew. Brown is in a different death position than that.
 
tyr_13 said:
I think it is kind of related actually.

Thinking about the complaints that many anti-police people have, how does one change them? Are their complaints really because of the type-A personality? I know part of my own motivation to try to join a police force was because I thought I could do the job (my back and knee joints disagreed) in a just manner and therefore was obligated to. What way do they think they will get better police officers? Now there are many possible mechanisms to get that. I'm for evidence based best practices being advanced throughout the country, pysch requirements, training, anti-corruption measures, recording, oversight, and the like. Is that what motivates people to keep on with the '**** the police' posts, and continued talking about how all police are asses, pricks, power-tripping, racist, race-traitor, violent, jack-booted thugs?

Generally, no. In my experience they want the police to have less power and to leave them alone. Now I am very much for checks and limits on police power, but I still want speeders to get 'hassled'. Many of these people don't want the police to have much if any power, and it's generally because they buy into some parallel power structure. Some are idealistic (sometimes naive in my view), but many are simply parallel power structures they feel they have more input or power over. It's something they feel more connected with. That could be a homeowner's association, or private security firm, or criminal organization. The problem is though as corrupt, incompetent, and inefficient as the police can be, it absolutely pales in comparison to almost all these parallel power structures. The same things that tend to make people feel they have a stronger connection and more control over them are the very things that make them susceptible to massive corruption. 'Strong men' might have more a connection to the local populace, but also no checks or balance.

So my suggestion that they themselves become involved in the police forces, or in oversight/planning thereof, is made to make them think about the power structure, how it works, and how they actually are connected to it. Police aren't raised on some island training facility. They aren't a class, or a title gained through birthright. They're people from the same pool as the general population (or at least they should be!). However, the people I'm making the suggestion to never seem to realize that some of the same things that make them unsuited for becoming a police officer are some of the same things that make what they do feel connected with open to abuse as well. They never see their own connection to the police forces. This is something the police can, and need, to address in many places. They're part of the community, and if the idea that they're apart from or above it takes hold in either the force or the community there will be problems. Big ones.
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I think you found your calling.
 
The Central Scrutinizer said:
Of course. Any skeptic would be open to this possibility.

Equally plausible is he was a thug (or not) and the shooting was justified. Any skeptic would be open to this possibility. Non-skeptics struggle with this concept.
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Well stated.

Due the level of heavy emotion and lack of complete information involved in the specifics of Brown's death and the cop's role in it, I honestly feel that I cannot make any specific claims one way or the other on those questions.

However, what I will say is that I think the local police royally frakked up their initial response to the early protests, especially with the idiocy of arresting reporters, bringing out snipers and military gear, etc. All that nonsense only, in my view, made matters far worse for the community and everyone (protesters, police, etc) involved and just fed the firestorm. So in the moment when the local authorities could have helped to defuse a potentially dangerous situation, they appear to have done almost everything wrong.
 
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GWCarver said:
So, the position of his body on the pavement precludes him being on his knees with his hands raised when he was shot in the top of the head, does it not? It certainly seems that way to me. (This is assuming the body wasn't moved after he died.)
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Actually, thinking about it. If he were already prone when the fatal blow was delivered ( as asserted by another poster ) the injury from the dead drop onto the pavement would not be there, as there was no place to drop to if he were already prone.

Interesting point

Looking back, I see SkepticGinger already pointed that out.
 
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