Michael Brown Shooting

[Skeptic Ginger]

From one poster. We've [imagined we've seen] a lot more no holds barred anti-cop posters.

ftfy

 

[Unabogie]

"No good reason" ? Ha!

Let me explain something here. When there is an ongoing, active investigation with eyewitnesses apparently still surfacing (according to you yourself) there is VERY good reason not to release materials related to that investigation until it has concluded, or at least the evidence gathering phase has concluded.

I see. So black witnesses will see the official story from the police and lie and twist their story to make it fit what the witnesses say, because they are dishonest, and to further demonstrate their inherent, dare I say "genetic" dishonesty. However, conversely, releasing witness testimony and video from the convenience store won't allow the police to similarly backdate their story as well?

Fascinating.

 

[Ammonitida]

Here's another eyewitness who says Brown had his hands up, saying "don't shoot!"

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-ferguson-michael-brown-20140817-story.html



So she says he was on his knees with his hands up when he was shot in the head. Who wants to dismiss what she says here? Who thinks it's important that Mike Brown stole some cigarillos prior to this happening?

LOL

Doesn't have the ring of truth to it. Executing a man with a headshot (requires calm aim) while he was on his knees and pleading for his life, in broad daylight with witnesses around, sounds like a load of ********. If anything, this is evidence in support of Wilson -- because it shows that some in the community are totally willing to lie about what they saw, in hopes that Wilson will be convicted of something he didn't do.

And yes, it is VERY important that Michael Brown perpetrated a strong-arm robbery through physical force and fear just minutes prior to his encounter with Wilson.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

So in your version, it's much more likely an unarmed Brown would aggressively charge at an armed officer 30 feet away who was firing his weapon? That's logical to you?

Or are you trying to say Brown's death was his own fault because he wasn't smart as you believe you would have been?

I can't imagine any reasonable scenario that Brown would charge the cop except turning around to surrender. I can imagine Brown running out of initial fear after being shot, realizing after a few more seconds to think that he wasn't going to make it and trying to surrender.

Just so long as when you're trying to assess whether what Brown is said to have done by Wilson is logical, smart, reasonable, or thoughtful... you aren't forgetting to put this in the context of:

1.) Someone who had just committed a Class B Felony which could've landed him in prison for up to 15 years in full view of multiple customers, employees, and security cameras while his face was uncovered and he was in his own neighborhood. An act which could have resulted in the clerk or another employee producing a weapon to retaliate... and THEN went out to leisurely stroll down the middle of the street, in the middle of the day, wearing the same clothes and holding the stolen merchandise in his hand.

2.) Someone who, if injuries and ballistics in the cruiser prove it, and if you're prepared to concede at least the earlier portion of Wilson's account, had decided to physically assault a police officer in broad daylight with witnesses around and try to gain control of that officer's weapon.

So yes, you're right, turning and trying to rush the police officer is a stupid, illogical action which any rational person would realize was highly likely to result in one's death. But so is pushing a police officer into his cruiser and fighting with him, and trying to take his weapon.

If memory serves, deadly force is often authorized to protect property and to stop someone in the act of committing a forcible felony, so what he did in the convenience store might also have put him in danger of being legally shot dead. I'm not saying whoever did it (whether it be other customer or employee) wouldn't have racked up some legal bills or maybe even been judged to have acted improperly, but it was still a highly dangerous thing for him to do.

So yea, just keep this kind of stuff in mind when you're mind is boggling about something else he's purported to have done sounding reckless.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

I see. So black witnesses will see the official story from the police and lie and twist their story to make it fit what the witnesses say, because they are dishonest, and to further demonstrate their inherent, dare I say "genetic" dishonesty. However, conversely, releasing witness testimony and video from the convenience store won't allow the police to similarly backdate their story as well?

Fascinating.

This has nothing to do with the demographics of the area and likely race of any witnesses who might come forward. This is standard operating procedure for active investigations nationwide, and in most first world nations.

Witnesses can even do this sort of thing without realizing they are. They try to keep evidence from different sources and perspectives as free from the risk of "cross contamination" as possible. Stop trying to filter every. single. thing. through the "everything is racist" filter. It will make logical thought a lot easier.

As for the police? If they have a dated and recorded statement from Wilson immediately after the shooting, or immediately after his release from the hospital, that would presumably predate even the police gaining access to the surveillance video.

Are police inherently in a better position to see the big picture and try to cover for their guy? Sure. Nature of the beast. They have a lot of internal procedures in place to limit that, internal affairs and sunshine laws and inviting other investigative bodies in to look at it... those things hopefully mitigate that possibility or eliminate it. Nothing's perfect.

 

[newyorkguy]

A big part of the problem is, we simply don't have the officer's side of the story. We have various stories from the local police chief, yes, but I think that the report from the actual officer would tell us much more clearly what happened.

I'm not sure the Ferguson Police Department's chief has presented a version. This is what the chief of the St. Louis County Police Department told a news conference the day after the shooting:

"The genesis of this was a physical confrontation," Jon Belmar, chief of the St. Louis County Police Department, said at a Sunday news conference. The officer tried to leave his vehicle just before the shooting on Saturday afternoon, but Brown pushed him back into the car, "where he physically assaulted the police officer" and struggled over the officer's weapon, Belmar said.
A shot was fired inside the police car, and Brown was eventually shot about 35 feet away from the vehicle, Belmar said, adding few details because he didn't want to "prejudice" the case. Link

I would presume that must be based on reports by or interviews with the officer involved. (He's also been described by his chief as being "devastated by this.") He was the only officer there.

 

[Ammonitida]

Correct, and a lot of this thread is just speculation.

I think we'll have a better idea of a lot of the details in the next week or so.

Early in this case, there was a story circulating twitter that purported to tell the officer's side of the story. It had little credibility at the time, but many of the things mentioned in this account have now been confirmed by the police chief. One thing that hasn't been confirmed, but is very important to Wilson's defense, is the extent of his facial injuries. In this account, Wilson was beaten so badly that one of his eyes had swollen shut. If true, that strongly supports a self-defense claim or at the very least a manslaughter claim. After the beating he may not have been thinking clearly and fired at a surrendering Brown, who was walking toward him.

 

[stanfr]

Since there has been so much speculation in this thread based on the flimsiest of evidence, Im gonna join the crowd and explain what happened/will happen:
Wilson attempts to stop Brown. Brown (perhaps due to his earlier robbery) resists and gets in a struggle, may have reached for Wilson's gun. Wilson becomes enraged that Brown has attempted to kill him, so he shoots down Brown in cold blood, despite Brown attempting to surrender at this point. The correct charge is manslaughter, but to appease the community he is charged with murder. I won't predict the trial outcome, since ive already speculated way too much already...

 

[Skeptic Tank]

LOL

Doesn't have the ring of truth to it. Executing a man with a headshot (requires calm aim) while he was on his knees and pleading for his life, in broad daylight with witnesses around, sounds like a load of ********. If anything, this is evidence in support of Wilson -- because it shows that some in the community are totally willing to lie about what they saw, in hopes that Wilson will be convicted of something he didn't do.

And yes, it is VERY important that Michael Brown perpetrated a strong-arm robbery through physical force and fear just minutes prior to his encounter with Wilson.

Post of the day, IMO.

One addition to what you said in the highlighted portion: Not just with witnesses around in broad daylight, but in 2014, in a neighborhood hostile to police, with every reason to believe multiple cell phone video cameras were pointed at the event and rolling.

The brilliance of your post just accelerated after that, re: what this sort of outlandish, theatrical and non-credible account says about the general willingness to lie to roast a police officer among (some) members of that community.

And, you're also absolutely correct about the significance of the strong-arm robbery. It is highly illuminating about the deceased's willingness to use violence to avoid the consequences of his criminality, his state of mind and behavior right around the time of his death, AND perhaps most importantly? It provides a very good reason he would be strongly opposed to interaction and cooperation with a police officer at that time. Because whether Wilson knew about the robbery at any time during it or not, Brown would have been worried he did.

As someone on CNN.com said, this situation was actually MORE dangerous for Wilson if he did not know about the robbery, because it means he was obliviously just thinking he was dealing with a jaywalker, while the criminal knew the stakes were higher, or believed they were. That's the sort of situation which sets a cop up for being ambushed and caught off guard. Which seems to have been exactly what happened.

 

[stanfr]

Early in this case, there was a story circulating twitter that purported to tell the officer's side of the story. It had little credibility at the time, but many of the things mentioned in this account have now been confirmed by the police chief. One thing that hasn't been confirmed, but is very important to Wilson's defense, is the extent of his facial injuries. In this account, Wilson was beaten so badly that one of his eyes had swollen shut. If true, that strongly supports a self-defense claim or at the very least a manslaughter claim. After the beating he may not have been thinking clearly and fired at a surrendering Brown, who was walking toward him.

Ahhh darn, ya beat me to it! I agree with you, except the part about 'strongly supports'. I think Wilson was just pissed off at that point after the 'beating'. Seen that happen a couple times in my 5 yr stint as a public defender.

 

[Wolrab]

I'm a pretty good sized guy with huge hands. Anyone want to allow me to get worked, up grab your throat and toss you aside like Brown did? It would be better if the volunteer was tiny like the clerk.

Stealing cigarillos is minor. The moment he became violent and physically assaulted the clerk, he crossed the line to felony.

If I, or any of my staff did what Brown did to a patient, we'd be facing serious charges.

To see that video and not see he is the very definition of a thug is cognitive dissonance.

 

[Unabogie]

LOL

Doesn't have the ring of truth to it.

Shocking. This is my shocked face.

 

[Mike!]

So in your version, it's much more likely an unarmed Brown would aggressively charge at an armed officer 30 feet away who was firing his weapon? That's logical to you?

Or are you trying to say Brown's death was his own fault because he wasn't smart as you believe you would have been?

I can't imagine any reasonable scenario that Brown would charge the cop except turning around to surrender. I can imagine Brown running out of initial fear after being shot, realizing after a few more seconds to think that he wasn't going to make it and trying to surrender.

I can also imagine Wilson, hyped on adrenalin, believing Brown was a threat, seeing a weapon that wasn't there. Imagining that big scary black kid was dangerous despite the fact Wilson was tens of feet away and Wilson had a drawn weapon. I can imagine Wilson shooting at first out the car window either accidentally or because Brown was tussling with him. Then shooting unnecessarily without thinking in the heat of the moment chasing Brown.

Wilson made mistake after mistake and given the fatal consequences, should be held accountable. What level that accountability should be depends on that autopsy.

I'm not claiming it's logical, in the conventional sense anyway, I'm saying it's possible. One of many possibilities that shouldn't be discounted so effortlessly.
What I am, poorly, trying to say is, none of us, here, can possibly know, for sure, for now, what exactly transpired that Sunday. I can see multiple scenarios that end in the evidence we have available, from one extreme to the other.
I don't think we are dealing with a police officer who blatantly, in broad daylight and in front of dozens of witnesses, executed an individual, in full submission, dead in the street execution style, any more than I believe Michael Brown 'charged' him like some kind of mindless, enraged animal, with no regard for personal safety.
I do believe the truth does lie somewhere between the two though, and for now, at best, we can only speculate given what we know, or believe to know anyway.
History has shown, time and again, people will do illogical things in situations that seem to have obvious simple solutions, no matter what we'd like to think otherwise.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

To see that video and not see he is the very definition of a thug is cognitive dissonance.

How'd you pack so much correctness into one sentence?

You're exactly right, the guy is using his size, his ability to intimidate, etc. to pull off a brazen robbery in broad daylight and openly defy the store owner to do anything about it. When he tries to, he makes it abundantly clear he's prepared to do more than just grab him by the neck and shove him into a shelf. Next up was probably getting decked, if he didn't concede Mr. Brown's "right" to exit the store with $50 worth of Swisher Sweets.

If that's not thuggery, what is?

 

[Cain]

Since there has been so much speculation in this thread based on the flimsiest of evidence, Im gonna join the crowd and explain what happened/will happen:
Wilson attempts to stop Brown. Brown (perhaps due to his earlier robbery) resists and gets in a struggle, may have reached for Wilson's gun. Wilson becomes enraged that Brown has attempted to kill him, so he shoots down Brown in cold blood, despite Brown attempting to surrender at this point. The correct charge is manslaughter, but to appease the community he is charged with murder. I won't predict the trial outcome, since ive already speculated way too much already...

How can someone so quickly revert from "rage" to "cold blood"?

I've tried looking for facts into the case.

How does someone die thirty five feet away? I suppose he could've taken a bullet (or bullets), ran, then collapsed. Was a shot fired from thirty five feet out? Why?

I agree the cop could've just been pissed and, seeing red, blew the guy away. It seems unnecessary to shoot a 300lb man who's already taken one (or more than one). He's not gonna get far.

 

[epepke]

I agree that this womans story sounds like bull. A cop executing a man on his knees, hands up in front of witnesses...does that happen in real life? I'm not taking sides on the overall story yet, but this sounds almost silly.

If that's silly, you'll find this a barrel of laughs.

 

[Lorentz]

I'm not sure if it was under oath but I consider a police officer who has gone through extensive background checks and been on the force for six years with apparently no complaints against him, to be more reliable than Dorian Johnson and yes even more reliable than the various witnesses around.

If he had no personal stake in this, I would agree. As it is however, he has his career and possibly his freedom hinging on this. If he did just shoot Brown in a blind rage, the odds of his admitting this now are close to zero. Do you agree?

If you do, his testimony can have next to no weight. Regardless of the actual events, his testimony would be along these lines.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

If you label anyone who is skeptical as to whether this shooting is justifiable or not as "anti-cop" you make any kind of rational or objective discussion pretty much impossible. In reality I think most intelligent people are waiting for the facts to come out while recognizing it is conceivable the eyewitness accounts are plausible. It is possible to hold those two viewpoints.

1. Wait for all the facts to come out.
2. Eyewitness accounts may be accurate.

You left one out:

Eyewitness accounts may be inaccurate.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Wow, a disturbingly large portion of posters here think cigar theft deserves summary execution.

Yes, I've lumped everyone that made any attempt to validate the cigar theft aspect of this as being in that group. Don't argue with me about it. You are now in it in my mind and will never escape it.

Good day to you.

 

[newyorkguy]

The other thing that bothers me is the reputation of the Ferguson Police Department. Most of the black residents have said the cops had a reputation for being confrontational in their dealings with blacks. I keep thinking about the link provided by Jimbob, which detailed one of the worst examples of police misconduct I've seen in a long time.

This was when Ferguson police arrested the wrong man on a warrant search, beat him at the police station and then charged him with destroying government property after the officers discovered the man's blood had stained their uniforms. A complaint was made -- I think a lawsuit was filed -- and Ferguson PD has resisted being held accountable. In fact this case is still being litigated. What bothers me is, what this says about Ferguson's police department. This isn't a big city department with thousands of officers spread over dozens of precincts where there's all kinds of stuff going on unbeknownst to anyone save a handful of officers. This is a small-town 53-person force. You would think they all know one another quite well, pretty much know what's going on.

You could say the earlier incident was just an isolated incident, and that's possible. You could also wonder if these two incidents aren't 'tip of the iceberg,' and indicate this is a bad police department that routinely violates people's rights. The way they arrested news media people, fired tear gas at a camera crew, even other cops said that was idiotic.

The officer who shot Brown has been with Ferguson PD reportedly about four years. Prior to that he worked as a police officer in neighboring Jennings for two years until it was disbanded because they got caught stealing grant money.

Jennings closed its police department in late 2011 in the wake of a federal probe into the theft of grant money, and turned public safety over to St. Louis County Police. Link

It sounds to me like there might be a real problem with local police ethics in St. Louis County. Check it out; there are plenty of local people who say there is. And they're not all black.