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Michael Brown Shooting

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johnny karate said:
That's a good point.

But help me out here. Do I root for law enforcement when they are attempting to impound the cattle of white criminals? Or only when they are killing black criminals? Because I've been getting mixed messages lately about when cops are supposed to be considered the good guys.
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In all honesty I didn't pay very close attention to the Bundy ranch fiasco. I only picked up what information seeped to me, never sought any out.

I'm really not sure how I feel about it. If he was breaking the law about grazing rights, and it sounds like he clearly was, then he should've obeyed it instead, and faced the appropriate punishment for doing so.

I might sympathize with his lamenting the laws changing over time, but the law is the law.
 
Skeptic Tank said:
If you had to choose between all the police in America vanishing through a wormhole this very instant, vs. all the people who steal, assault, riot, loot, rape, and murder vanishing instead... which would you choose?
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You going to include everyone who ever shoplifted on that straw man list?


Skeptic Tank said:
Maybe you should reconsider going to bat for the people who would just view you as a juicy victim under the right circumstances, and start supporting those who try to keep you safe.
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I'm happy to go to bat for an 18 yr old petty thief over a police officer using excessive force. The kid poses no more than a minor threat. A cop with an itchy trigger finger and/or a bad temper on the other hand....
 
Unabogie said:
No one is excusing thieves. I'm simply pointing out that this alleged theft is being used as an excuse for shooting an unarmed kid seven times, while his hands were up, by taking an unrelated event and using it as justification for any use of force. Noting that the alleged robbery is not the kind of robbery that one usually thinks of is only trying to put it into the proper context and perspective. If anything, you could say some people will do anything to excuse the killing of young black males, since they're using this as if it says "SEE, WE WERE RIGHT! DEAD THUG IS GOOD!"
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I haven't seen anyone claim this, certainly not in this thread. The robbery is absolutely related though, how it can be argued that it is not seems like an attempt to make excuses for Brown, not for Wilson.

I have seen several people try to claim that Brown and Johnson were stopped for no reason and literally executed by the police in broad daylight in full view of several witnesses though.
 
KatieG said:
Some people will do anything to excuse police behaviour.
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I am not clear on positions taken by certain posters thus far. Although, it must be acknowledged that the information regarding the incident seems far from complete, and it is simple obstinance to maintain a position in the face of contradictory information.

However, I must pose a question to those who dispute that the policeman was ever assaulted by Mr.Brown:

- Why do you think the officer decided to simply pull up and murder a random person?
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
I don't believe anyone is arguing walking down the middle of the street was legal. The question is, was it really necessary for this cop to make a big deal of it.

Imagine a different scenario. Cop drives by, "Hey guys, could you move to the sidewalk please? Thanks."
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A story, a bit late:

Back when I was a freshman in college, after a physics class, my friends and I were talking about...I don't even remember anymore. All of a sudden, a campus cop walked over and, looking at me, said "Excuse me sir, could we talk over here for a few seconds?" I said "Okay." (Somewhat foolishly), and walked over to where his partner was standing. At which point the first cop read me my Miranda rights (!) and started asking me questions about where I was on so-and-so day.

Turns out, a few days beforehand, another person had beaten the snot out of someone over drug money, and someone in class had pointed towards me as the guy who did it. And as it also turns out, we both had a very distinguishing feature - namely a huge afro (it was 1995). As it turns out, there was a guy who was going around, taking pictures of kids with afros - he had given me his car the previous semester. So, by being respectful, the cops had found themselves a decent lead on who this thug was. Now, had they simply run up yelling "Get over here!" like a Mortal Kombat character, I'd have been immediately insulted and embarrassed. I'd have given them absolutely nothing, and might have even been ready to run - or worse, to fight.

So, yeah, I have to agree, yelling "get on the ******* sidewalk!" and then swerving directly in front of them is an absurd way to react to two kids walking down the street - although the past week has certainly shown us that the Ferguson local cops are capable of wild overreactions. And it's bizarre for the police chief to discuss whether or not Brown had pushed someone and stolen some smokes beforehand - if the cop didn't know about it, then it's really not relevant. I had said towards the start of this thread that I thought the local chief was making some good decisions - but I think he messed up here. It'll come across as victim-blaming (it is), and the people protesting him already had no confidence in him (which is unfair, but understandable). What they really needed were the bullet wound locations on Brown, and the report about the shooting rather than his summary.
 
Giordano said:
Except that this is far from proven, and it simply doesn't matter in terms of the issue under discussion. Brown's state of mind may make it more or less likely that he assaulted the officer. But either way, the officer cannot justifiably shot Brown when he was running away if Brown was not a direct and immediate threat of harm. I await evidence about the first issue that will allow me to form a conclusion. But I still have not been provided evidence that suggests the final, fatal shooting was justified. If you have that, please tell me.
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The right wing buzzword during the Cliven Bundy incident was "proportionality".

I too would like to see evidence that the officer in this incident reacted with proportionality. Absent that, I'd like to see an explanation for why we as a society should consider a death sentence an appropriate punishment for robbery.
 
Distracted1 said:
Perhaps you have a more concise way of saying " physically struggled with in an attempt to steal a weapon from ". I thought " nearly forcibly disarmed " conveyed that idea with clarity.

Is there some reason why you choose to describe stopping couple of legal adults ( one of which neared 300lbs ) who ( with or without aggressive intent ) were walking down the middle of the street as " harassing some kids". People still text and drive, you know, without your prejudice you might even consider that the officer was expressing concern for their safety.
As in " I stopped to tell a couple of guys that it is unsafe to be walking in the street. One of them moved to the sidewalk, and the other one came at me"
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Tell me, cop's inside the car, or at least the car door is between him and the suspect, so how does Brown reach that gun? Is that even credible? Guy steals some cigarettes and he's now going to murder a cop?

Have any of you thought this through besides making up fantasy scenarios?
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
You going to include everyone who ever shoplifted on that straw man list?
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You're right, that's pretty minor. We'll go ahead and exclude shoplifters and jaywalkers and even loose cigarette sellers.

But let's keep the strong arm robbers and police assaulters on there, k?
 
Distracted1 said:
However, I must pose a question to those who dispute that the policeman was ever assaulted by Mr.Brown:

- Why do you think the officer decided to simply pull up and murder a random person?
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Assault on an officer merits a death sentence?
 
Brainster said:
I Googled QuikTrip in Ferguson and found this location:

9420 W FLORISSANT AVE FERGUSON, MO 63136

Putting that in Maquest gave me an overview of the area. Florissant Ave looks to be a heavily trafficked main street in Ferguson, and it appears that the QuikTrip is located at the SEC of Florissant and Northwinds Estates (note the canopy out front of the store).

Looking at the second photo you posted, it appears that Brown was walking along Canfield Drive, which intersects Florissant one block south of the QuikTrip. You can barely make out a cross-street sign labeled Coppercreek. As you can see on Mapquest, both Coppercreek Rd and Coppercreek Ct intersect Canfield Drive. I can't make out whether it's Rd or Ct on the sign, but as there are multifamily dwellings on the opposite side of the street, I'm guessing it's Copperfield Ct. Either way, Canfield Drive clearly leads back into an area of apartment complexes. It's a road that connects a lot of people with the main drag. So even though it's only one lane in each direction, it would appear to be quite busy, especially on a Saturday around noon.
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He wasn't shot in front of the Quicktrip.

Look at the friggin pictures of the body in the street, it's a narrow 2-lane residential street. There is no evidence any traffic was blocked.
 
Giordano said:
Except that this is far from proven, and it simply doesn't matter in terms of the issue under discussion. Brown's state of mind may make it more or less likely that he assaulted the officer. But either way, the officer cannot justifiably shot Brown when he was running away if Brown was not a direct and immediate threat of harm. I await evidence about the first issue that will allow me to form a conclusion. But I still have not been provided evidence that suggests the final, fatal shooting was justified. If you have that, please tell me.
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I would like to see some documentation of that.
Earlier posters put up links that indicate that a policeman can shoot a fleeing violent felon.

Even if no consideration is given to Mr. Browns' felony at the convenience store, he became one when he attacked the officer.

If you don't accept that the officer was attacked, you are stuck with the proposition that Wilson just decided to pull up and shoot someone to death in broad daylight on general principles.
 
johnny karate said:
Assault on an officer merits a death sentence?
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Depending on the situation and severity of the assault, and physical size of the assaulter as compared to the officer... whether the assaulter has any accomplices... etc... I'd say "yes."

As in, 5'2" female alone who just got pulled over for drunk driving slaps 6'1" male cop across the face while generally being non-compliant and rowdy? I don't think he should bust out his sidearm and blow her away. I'd have issues with him doing that. It isn't necessary, at all.

On the other hand... 6'4" 290lb male with another adult male accomplice becomes suddenly violent during a routine stop, pushes smaller officer into his cruiser, beats him about the face, and attempts to gain control of his firearm? In that situation, I'd say absolutely that merits a death sentence. Even if he realizes he lost the struggle for the firearm and is trying to make good his escape. You can't know what he'll do now that he knows he's a wanted suspect, and after seemingly trying to kill a police officer, you have to assume he's a danger to the community. Take him out.

Now if he gets 20 feet away, is still alive, and drops to his knees and starts begging for his life, and the officer has time to mentally process this and knows his life is no longer in danger... then sure, the officer can and probably should "reset" the situation to some degree, while maintaining a higher level of awareness of the person's threat to him, and holding him at gunpoint until backup arrives. But I'd want to know where the accomplice is at this time, and what the officer knows regarding his status (is he armed? is he in view? etc.)

Sometimes things happen so fast that the officer here may very well have already been squeezing out the trigger pulls for the final few shots (they're trained to unload a clip very fast) before he had any ability to mentally process any sort of supposed surrender, which I am not convinced happened at all.
 
For future reference, here is CNN's take on Missouri's self-defense law:

"You can use deadly force, with no duty to retreat, if you reasonably believe it is necessary to combat imminent force and if it is necessary to prevent death or serious physical injury or to combat a forcible felony while a person unlawfully tries to enter your dwelling, residence, or vehicle."

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2012/04/us/table.selfdefense.laws/
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Tell me, cop's inside the car, or at least the car door is between him and the suspect, so how does Brown reach that gun? Is that even credible? Guy steals some cigarettes and he's now going to murder a cop?

Have any of you thought this through besides making up fantasy scenarios?
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My car has windows, I often roll them down on warm days. Sometimes when I open the car door, I don't immediately shut it.
 
Skeptic Tank said:
That's basically the option we're living in right now, with the obvious allowance for police being human beings.

They certainly aren't some malevolent force out murdering citizens for no reason, though you'd think they were if you only listened to certain people.
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You propose a wormhole that can selectively eat all the police, yet you claim it is to much to expect to ask them not to shoot unthreatening people running away from them? And you accuse others of insulting the police.
 
GWCarver said:
For future reference, here is CNN's take on Missouri's self-defense law:

"You can use deadly force, with no duty to retreat, if you reasonably believe it is necessary to combat imminent force and if it is necessary to prevent death or serious physical injury or to combat a forcible felony while a person unlawfully tries to enter your dwelling, residence, or vehicle."

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2012/04/us/table.selfdefense.laws/
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Does that apply to police officers in the exercise of their duties? I doubt it.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Guy steals some cigarettes and he's now going to murder a cop?
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Guess it all depends on who you want to align your "default skepticism" posture toward.

Do you wish to believe you live in a country where police officers routinely execute young black men for no reason?

Or do you want to be more cynical about the kind of people who commit strong arm robbery, and apparently (if what I'm seeing is correct) a burglary last November. And this is just what shows up since they turned 18, since juvenile record is handled differently.

Personally, I'm more cynical about the robbing, rioting, raping, assaulting segments of our society than I am about the police.
 
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