Michael Brown Shooting

[theprestige]

Alan Dershowitz pointed out, correctly, that while people may say that it is better to let a hundred guilty go free than convict one innocent, that people don't really think that way for a minute.

Given that this is obviously a matter of subjective opinion, I don't see how Dershowitz could possibly be "correct", compared to all the people who don't really think that way for a minute.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

The Simpson case, at least concerning a conviction, was over at jury selection.

Yep.

Add in some street drug and you have an attacking unstoppable loco-motive.

PCP? 'Roid rage? Cocaine rage? Tox report ought to show it.

Thinking the same thing. I don't think such a drug is necessary to explain his behavior, but it would fit and make a lot of sense.

What it proves is that this cop was a terrible shot. He was apparently trying to execute Brown, but hit one of the hands the kid had raised high above his head (and at an angle).

Took me a second to realize this was some finely crafted sarcasm, and then I enjoyed it.

 

[Ammonitida]

I don't buy that as being conclusive. It would still be possible if his arms were up but his fingers were bent forward.

This appears to be consistent with the accounts from that video, where it was alleged that Brown kept advancing toward the officer, and the officer kept "missing" shots. He didn't miss after all, but hit his arms several times (which could look like misses to bystanders), and then finally hit the top of his head, as he was bull rushing him (the very word his friend used to describe it).

 

[Ammonitida]

What it proves is that this cop was a terrible shot. He was apparently trying to execute Brown, but hit one of the hands the kid had raised high above his head (and at an angle).

LMFAO!

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

If Baden could show in court that Brown was likely surrendering, or was not running, they would have released that info at the press conference, imo.

The Officer's story is out there, basically.

If that autopsy contradicted it, they would have said so.

How do you figure it didn't contradict the officer's account?

There's to be a news conference in the morning. Let's hear what is said then.

Right now we see a report, "four shots to the arm", "two shots to the head", and, the examiner didn't yet have access to the clothing.

At least three of those shots in the arm are to the inside aspect. You don't run with your arms in that position, but it is consistent with arms raised over one's head.

One way or the other, it appears the autopsy will have the information we need.

Blood on the inside of the arm, is there related blood or not on the tee shirt?

I'm willing to wait, and I think, given the location of the entry wounds, the autopsy details will resolve the position of his arms when the shots hit him.

If his arms were down, Wilson made a stupid decision, but maybe not a criminal one. If Brown's arms were up, Wilson's mistake was at least criminal negligence, even if the killing wasn't intentional.

And, BTW, I don't think the killing was intentional. I think it was likely cop in a rage, out of control.

That's an anatomical drawing showing the location of the wounds. The position of one's arms, running toward the cop or holding one's arms up surrendering, is not the position of the anatomical drawing. I suggest people think about that.

 

[Giz]

Very few seem to be observing that the fact that such an incident could not only occur but inflame people to the point of riots indicates long-standing, systemic problems with the way these incidents are handled in general.

But this could occur whenever a young man's short-term aggression outweighs their apprehension of long-term consequences.

And the riots appear to be the fault of a certain section of the community who have problems with:
1) Waiting for due process
2) Accepting that maybe the dead perp had brought it on himself

It doesn't necessarily have to be the fault of wider society at all...

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Obviously all those shots were in pretty rapid succession and a tight burst, other than perhaps the one or two back at the police vehicle... but it's worth pointing out that if the arm shots were the first shots, that was yet another opportunity to stop and likely survive, which Mr. Brown passed up.

I actually hope he turns out to have been on PCP. As I said, I don't think it's necessary to explain what the officer describes, but it would just be a hilarious crowning moment on all this. It would be very funny to see people try to deny the obvious implications of that drug in particular being in his system, since most people know what it does.

Plus, frankly? I'd much rather believe the good guy won in this encounter. It'd be pretty depressing to think the evil cop killed the innocent young man for no reason. Not sure why so many people are desperate to believe that.

 

[Caper]

I'm watching these officers patrolling the street live and all I can think if his how much overtime these guys must be raking in.

 

[Ammonitida]

How do you figure it didn't contradict the officer's account?

There's to be a news conference in the morning. Let's hear what is said then.

Right now we see a report, "four shots to the arm", "two shots to the head", and, the examiner didn't yet have access to the clothing.

At least three of those shots in the arm are to the inside aspect. You don't run with your arms in that position, but it is consistent with arms raised over one's head.

One way or the other, it appears the autopsy will have the information we need.

Blood on the inside of the arm, is there related blood or not on the tee shirt?

I'm willing to wait, and I think, given the location of the entry wounds, the autopsy details will resolve the position of his arms when the shots hit him.

If his arms were down, Wilson made a stupid decision, but maybe not a criminal one. If Brown's arms were up, Wilson's mistake was at least criminal negligence, even if the killing wasn't intentional.

And, BTW, I don't think the killing was intentional. I think it was likely cop in a rage, out of control.

That's an anatomical drawing showing the location of the wounds. The position of one's arms, running toward the cop or holding one's arms up surrendering, is not the position of the anatomical drawing. I suggest people think about that.

If he was bull rushing, his arms would likely expose the inner sides to gunfire.

 

[LTC8K6]

How do you figure it didn't contradict the officer's account?

There's to be a news conference in the morning. Let's hear what is said then.

Right now we see a report, "four shots to the arm", "two shots to the head", and, the examiner didn't yet have access to the clothing.

At least three of those shots in the arm are to the inside aspect. You don't run with your arms in that position, but it is consistent with arms raised over one's head.

One way or the other, it appears the autopsy will have the information we need.

Blood on the inside of the arm, is there related blood or not on the tee shirt?

I'm willing to wait, and I think, given the location of the entry wounds, the autopsy details will resolve the position of his arms when the shots hit him.

If his arms were down, Wilson made a stupid decision, but maybe not a criminal one. If Brown's arms were up, Wilson's mistake was at least criminal negligence, even if the killing wasn't intentional.

And, BTW, I don't think the killing was intentional. I think it was likely cop in a rage, out of control.

That's an anatomical drawing showing the location of the wounds. The position of one's arms, running toward the cop or holding one's arms up surrendering, is not the position of the anatomical drawing. I suggest people think about that.

I think the shots roughly match a running Brown. I've already gone over it. The palm wound is almost parallel to the line of fire, imo.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

I'm watching these officers patrolling the street live and all I can think if his how much overtime these guys must be raking in.

Just the latest way a very costly community is being even costlier.

 

[LTC8K6]

Imagine that Brown is putting his right hand out in the "I want to shake your hand" position.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Imagine that Brown is putting his right hand out in the "I want to shake your hand" position.

You saying that the bullet that did the palm damage also did the next hole up on the arm?

 

[LTC8K6]

You saying that the bullet that did the palm damage also did the next hole up on the arm?

[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/oY15172.png[/qimg]

Or possibly one of the ones on the torso.

The palm wound is almost a graze from being nearly parallel to the line of fire, imo.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Or possibly one of the ones on the torso.

The palm wound is almost a graze from being nearly parallel to the line of fire, imo.

It will be interesting to see the final tally of shots fired as compared to shots which hit Brown.

Because it does seem likely that a single bullet may have caused more than one of those injuries, in one or more cases.

I don't know if that's already been established/ruled out or what but it's an interesting consideration. And obviously gives more insight into his stance as the shots were hitting.

 

[Kaosium]

How can someone so quickly revert from "rage" to "cold blood"?

I've tried looking for facts into the case.

How does someone die thirty five feet away? I suppose he could've taken a bullet (or bullets), ran, then collapsed. Was a shot fired from thirty five feet out? Why?

Indeed, especially considering the officer in question knew that Mike Brown had robbed the Ferguson Market, therefore he could figure that they had him on tape and being as he had an indication of where Brown lived that he wasn't going to be tough to find.

The friend of his on the radio show suggested that Wilson pursued, therefore he may have been near to the 35' mark when he fired the last rounds as he also said Brown had turned and tried to bull rush Wilson again. The positions of the ejected casings will determine whether the former is likely to be true, the autopsy will give evidence as to the latter.

I agree the cop could've just been pissed and, seeing red, blew the guy away. It seems unnecessary to shoot a 300lb man who's already taken one (or more than one). He's not gonna get far.

He'd almost have to have been an immediate threat to Wilson to justify all those shots, though a large guy like Brown can survive being hit by bullets at least long enough to do some major damage before he drops, depending on where the bullets hit. There's also a clue as to how many bullets were in the body from Chief Belmar who said 'more than a couple' but he also said he didn't think it was many more. That suggests 3-4 to me. It's also quite likely that the at least one of them was almost immediately fatal being as it appears there was no attempt at resuscitation.

 

[LTC8K6]

It's likely that only the last few shots had much effect, though.

Baden's opinion is that the last two shots were the head shots.

Officers are trained to fire until the threat ends.

The number of shots is normal if the scenario is as we have heard, according to the officer.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Obviously all those shots were in pretty rapid succession and a tight burst, other than perhaps the one or two back at the police vehicle... but it's worth pointing out that if the arm shots were the first shots, that was yet another opportunity to stop and likely survive, which Mr. Brown passed up.

Or not, read on.

[PCP fantasy snipped] It'd be pretty depressing to think the evil cop killed the innocent young man for no reason. Not sure why so many people are desperate to believe that.

"For no reason" is a straw man.

If he was bull rushing, his arms would likely expose the inner sides to gunfire.

Bull rushing with his head down? From 30 feet away? Or getting on the ground while surrendering?

I think the shots roughly match a running Brown. I've already gone over it. The palm wound is almost parallel to the line of fire, imo.

You run with your palms out, facing forward? That is one big 'please fit my scenario' stretch.

Imagine that Brown is putting his right hand out in the "I want to shake your hand" position.

And this means what exactly?

You saying that the bullet that did the palm damage also did the next hole up on the arm?

[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/oY15172.png[/qimg]

The report was four shots to the arm. I think we can say the examiner was not suggesting any of the arm wounds were the result of one shot making more than one of those wounds.

It's likely that only the last few shots had much effect, though.

Baden's opinion is that the last two shots were the head shots.

Officers are trained to fire until the threat ends.

The number of shots is normal if the scenario is as we have heard, according to the officer.

Ask yourself another question. If the first four shots hit the arm, and the chest wound was or was not a reentry wound from one of the arm wounds, none of those shots would have taken Brown down. Do you agree with that much?

Now consider the eye entry wound that went down toward the jaw and collar bone, and the final head shot reportedly at an entry angle with the head down. Both of those wounds easily could have caused Brown to go down. Both of those shots suggest Brown's head was down, the last head shot for sure, but even the eye shot bullet trajectory was downward.

Can bullets make right angle turns? Maybe. But it is also consistent both head shots were when Brown's head was down or moving down.

So which is more likely? Brown was charging from 30 feet away with his head already down like a charging bull? Or, Brown's arms were up and he was moving to lie on the ground as a surrendering man would move?

I'm willing to wait for the more definitive information from the autopsies, such as the blood pattern on Brown's shirt.

Are the rest of you? Put it out here now, if there are no blood spatters on Brown's shirt that correlate with the arm wounds, is that consistent with his arms raised or not?

 

[Cain]

The friend of his on the radio show suggested that Wilson pursued...

That makes sense.

He'd almost have to have been an immediate threat to Wilson to justify all those shots...

Baden's opinion is that the last two shots were the head shots.

Officers are trained to fire until the threat ends.

NYT's commenters are outraged that six shots hit Brown, calling it "excessive," and, "a one man firing squad." But he can only shoot as long as Brown's up. It's not as though he waltzed over to the corpse, changed magazines, and then kept firing until he he heard a click.

Wasn't Johnson apprehended at the scene? Why did the officer spare his life? So far it seems like the evidence is consistent with Brown adopting an aggressive posture.

 

[dudalb]

Just listened to Captain Johnson's statement.
He stated that that violence was pre planned. A civilian was shot...not by the police...molotove were thrown,and more shots fired at police. 4 stores were looted.
A couple more nights like this,and it's National Guard time.