Michael Brown shooting II

[Mike!]

What was he convicted of previously? In the case of the strong arm robbery he may not have been convicted. I realize he might have been guilty of some kind of crime as an accomplice because he was there when Brown robbed the place, but he said he didn't know Brown intended to do that and didn't he put something back after Brown gave it to him?

I don't thing anyone said he was a stupid scumbag. I think he was smart enough to know they were likely on surveillance when MB stole the cigars, and despite MB's intimidation of the clerk, that it might not go unreported.

 

[theprestige]

If a cop, after the eleventy-hundredth time passing punks walking in the middle of the street, used an F-bomb, this does not shock me nor disturb me.

Not only that, but such behavior merits a stern talking-to from the watch commander, at worst. If that was the the offense that Wilson committed against Brown, then Brown's fatal shooting is still the proper outcome of choices Brown made and for which Brown is still properly responsible.

 

[Upchurch]

What was he convicted of previously?

I have only found one reference to Johnson having plead guilty to lying about his name to a police officer when he was a minor. I can find the reference, if you like.

But it certainly isn't the long rap-sheet that many are making it out to be.

 

[carlitos]

I can think of one reason to lie to the police about your name. It doesn't involve a clean rap sheet though.

 

[jimbob]

RandFan, I like you a lot but you are not acquitting yourself well here. What happened to Michael Brown wasn't any larger societal issue. It was punk kid criminals acting stupidly and one got killed.
Giving any credence at all to the "witness" "testimony" as you have here makes me embarrassed when I read it.

That said, happy Memorial Day. I hope that there will more bbq and less political arguments in our futures. .

It was, but this happens regularly in many other countries without police needing to resort to lethal force so frequently.

I don't think you can separate it from the wider issue of how the police behave in Ferguson.

 

[jimbob]

I have only found one reference to Johnson having plead guilty to lying about his name to a police officer when he was a minor. I can find the reference, if you like.

But it certainly isn't the long rap-sheet that many are making it out to be.

I can think of one reason to lie to the police about your name. It doesn't involve a clean rap sheet though.

If you were a black in Ferguson up to 2014 at least, "The Man" really was out to get you. Giving a false name could be no more than simple defiance. It might not have been, but the DoJ report shows that the rot went all the way to the top, so there was every reason for blacks to distrust any officer of the FPD. Given the documented attitudes and behaviours of the officers in the FPD, it is unsurprising if the most-targeted section of the population are less than polite to them.

 

[carlitos]

If the police are out to get you, a real genius move is to exert "simple defiance" and lie about your identity. Something that they can probably check in minutes if not seconds with a cursory pat-down. Some civil right hero; let's build a monument to him and burn down our hair salon.

 

[carlitos]

It was, but this happens regularly in many other countries without police needing to resort to lethal force so frequently.



I don't think you can separate it from the wider issue of how the police behave in Ferguson.

Thanks for telling me about other countries. Good info.

 

[jimbob]

If the police are out to get you, a real genius move is to exert "simple defiance" and lie about your identity. Something that they can probably check in minutes if not seconds with a cursory pat-down. Some civil right hero; let's build a monument to him and burn down our hair salon.

And kids are well known for their long-term thinking?

 

[carlitos]

No.

 

[jimbob]

Thanks for telling me about other countries. Good info.

The US does seem to have far more of a problem with its policing than many other OECD countries. We don't even know how many fatal police shootings there are in the US. The UK is far from a paragon of virtue - as I have said in this thread where no UK police officer has been convicted of manslaughter for a crime whilst on duty since 1986, including 13 cases where verdicts of unlawful killing have been returned in inquests.

However, we do at least know how many deaths following contact with the police there have been. We even know how many times an officer has even threatened to use their taser.

It still stands that large, aggressive, potentially drunk/high young adult males are routinely dealt with by the police forces in other countries with lethal force being resorted to far less frequently - in the US, we can't even compare different departments (although Pasco police department seems to have a several thousandfold higher police-shooting rate per capita than the UK - four in six months, for a population of 68,000, compared to four since 2010 for a population of 64-million).

 

[RandFan]

The US does seem to have far more of a problem with its policing than many other OECD countries. We don't even know how many fatal police shootings there are in the US. The UK is far from a paragon of virtue - as I have said in this thread where no UK police officer has been convicted of manslaughter for a crime whilst on duty since 1986, including 13 cases where verdicts of unlawful killing have been returned in inquests.

However, we do at least know how many deaths following contact with the police there have been. We even know how many times an officer has even threatened to use their taser.

It still stands that large, aggressive, potentially drunk/high young adult males are routinely dealt with by the police forces in other countries with lethal force being resorted to far less frequently - in the US, we can't even compare different departments (although Pasco police department seems to have a several thousandfold higher police-shooting rate per capita than the UK - four in six months, for a population of 68,000, compared to four since 2010 for a population of 64-million).

^^Good post.


I don't know how anyone can look at the data and not see a problem.

 

[carlitos]

1 -- who said that there wasn't a problem? St. Louis is one of the most racist cities I have ever come across.

2 -- giving the police a false name is "less than polite?" Seriously? That's how critical thinkers are going to characterize such an action?

 

[jimbob]

2 -- giving the police a false name is "less than polite?" Seriously? That's how critical thinkers are going to characterize such an action?

I am British so tend to use understatement

ETA: I think I have used about half the phrases in this link. And been understood.

Although I don't do that at work, due to having Dutch colleagues.

 

[carlitos]

I lived in Britain for years and I have no idea what you are saying.


ETA -- oh my God that is a funny link. Thank you.

 

[Distracted1]

I'm on thin ice for being OT on at least two other incidents recently. Perhaps this will put me over the top and I will be suspended. We will see. I hope not but perhaps it's well deserved (one incident was particularly egregious, tu quote and irrelevant).

I posted it because it provides context. Carlitos made what I think is a very disturbing post. He seems to suggest that there is nothing we can do about police corruption because we must hire humans who are fallible.

In short, Carlitos seems to suggest that police corruption and abuse must be accepted because there is nothing that we can do.

There may be many things that can be done.
However, before I support those ideas, I need some assurances that they will not make my life less safe. Right now I would even go so far as to allow moreaggressive behavior on the part of the police in my city. Convince me that a tighter reign on my police will not result in more crime in my neighborhood and I will be behind you all the way.
The police in high crime areas like Baltimore seem to be put in a lose-lose dilemma. When they are aggressive they are vilified, and when they pull back they are blamed for the violence being committed by the actual criminals.

 

[carlitos]

Yup. Nature abhors a Vaccuum. Some of the reduced police activity after these incidents is due to work slowdowns, and the gangs move right in.

 

[RandFan]

There may be many things that can be done.
However, before I support those ideas, I need some assurances that they will not make my life less safe. Right now I would even go so far as to allow moreaggressive behavior on the part of the police in my city. Convince me that a tighter reign on my police will not result in more crime in my neighborhood and I will be behind you all the way.
The police in high crime areas like Baltimore seem to be put in a lose-lose dilemma. When they are aggressive they are vilified, and when they pull back they are blamed for the violence being committed by the actual criminals.

With all due respect I think this is utter nonsense. It's apologetics. There are independent 3rd party organizations that monitor the police and they tell us that the violence is A.) not necessary and B.) creates tension in the community.

As for your desire to increase police violence for "your" safety, that tells me all I need to know.

 

[RandFan]

Yup. Nature abhors a Vaccuum. Some of the reduced police activity after these incidents is due to work slowdowns, and the gangs move right in.

So, you agree that there is a problem but you seem to imply that people shouldn't talk about it out of fear the police won't do their jobs.

Help me out. I don't understand what you want of the people of Ferguson who have put up with an amazing amount of crap from the authorities.

 

[Distracted1]

With all due respect I think this is utter nonsense. It's apologetics. There are independent 3rd party organizations that monitor the police and they tell us that the violence is A.) not necessary and B.) creates tension in the community.

As for your desire to increase police violence for "your" safety, that tells me all I need to know.

The independent third party organizations are great at pointing out abuses that have occurred, no doubt. Can you link to one that makes a compelling case that aggressive policing is "not necessary" to keep criminal activity minimized?
Or is it possible that abuses that occur are inevitable, and the best that can realistically be achieved whilst still meeting a mandate to keep citizens safe given the available resources is a minimization of such incidents?