Michael Brown shooting II

[jimbob]

I know when I am right.
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blbushchimplookalikes.htm

However Twitty was using it as a racist joke when refering to Obama.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I do believe that is part of Skeptic Ginger's argument, but it isn't part of mine.....

And you would be wrong.

I think it's more likely that Wilson kept shooting after Brown was going down, and it wasn't because he feared Brown was charging at him. That could have been incompetence, he wasn't in control of each shot but was just shooting wildly.

Or, he kept shooting because he was pissed off and his anger was out of control.

I think the whole department looks at young black men as thugs more often than not and I think it's unlikely Wilson's behavior is any different. I think that contributed to Wilson causing the whole encounter to be needlessly confrontational from his first interaction with Brown and Johnson. I think that set the situation up for a confrontation that didn't need to happen the way it did.

Good cops don't start out treating jaywalkers like they were pieces of crap. Good cops calmly approach suspects, they don't screech their vehicles back like Rambo, stopping in front of the suspects too close to open the car door.

I would not be surprised to find out Wilson did not hear the robbery suspect report but rather was pissed off the two young men didn't get out of the street as he demanded and that turned on his power tripping hormones. But why he turned around to confront the two has little to do with what happened next.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

All you've done is cherry pick and remove context. It's as it ever is, you're looking at only some things that happened and ignoring how and why so you can insert that.

The physical evidence doesn't just fit his account, it disproves the other accounts. That's just a small part of things you fail to consider. At any rate others are doing a good job of engaging you on this, so I don't want to gang up on you.

I don't agree. You are welcome to your own assessment of the evidence. Don't try to tell me how I made mine. You've already been wrong on that and you are again.

 

[theprestige]

Wrong, the image of Bush was Alfred E Neuman.

I know when I am right.
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blbushchimplookalikes.htm

So very right.

http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/funnypictures/ig/Funniest-Pictures-of-Decade/Bush-Or-Chimp-.htm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/bush-looks-an-awful-lot-l_b_14266.html

And here's a piece from Salon that really gets into the phenomenon of Bush-as-chimp:

http://www.salon.com/2001/01/19/curious_george/

For good measure, Obama also gets the Alfred E. Neuman treatment:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/steveforbes/2014/08/20/is-alfred-e-neuman-making-u-s-foreign-policy/

http://www.wnd.com/2011/09/347193/

http://clashdaily.com/2013/12/barack-obamas-alfred-e-neuman-presidency/

http://spectator.org/articles/60569/president-alfred-e-neuman

So much for the "chimp equals racism, alfred neuman does not" hypothesis.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I know when I am right.
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blbushchimplookalikes.htm

You're right, there is a resemblance.

 

[Upchurch]

I show you a timeline, you sow pics of cops not in riot gear that you claim is riot gear because it's sold as "tactical" or is camo.

The hyperbole is astounding. I showed you military vehicle used for riots and you played semantic games and then ultimately failed to demonstrate your point.

Such is the state of this critical thinking forum these days!

Project much? You had such faith in your position, you didn't even realize that you had made an unsupported claim. Several times, I had to ask you the foundational question of critical thinking: "How do you know?" And you still fell back on logical fallacies.

Let's look:

But a city clerk sends 7 racist emails to 2 cops from 2008-2011 and suddenly the entire police force is a bunch of racists.

Straw man and, at this point, cherry picking the data.

But "peaceful" protesters out demonstrating late into the night giving cover to burners and looters is painting them unfairly...

Hasty generalization and cherry picking.

No, you pointed to it as an appeal to authority, as if I'll just accept whatever they say because you think I'm a "red state" kind of person.

Straw man.

I'm arguing that this is 100% political.

Claim with no evidence.

Unable to find evidence to accuse Wilson of so much as spitting on the sidewalk this dog and pony show was trotted out. "Small town uses police force to generate revenue", OMG how shocking, I never knew that went on before!

Cherry picking and conspiracy theory.

And then the massaging of statistics in a way the very same DoJ acknowledged was a misuse of statistics just a few years ago.

Claim with no evidence.
​

Tell me more about your expertise on critical thinking.

Speaking of which, did you ever figure out if a fatal gun shot wound to the stomach causes external bleeding?

 

[carlitos]

This kills me. Bush endured that comparison constantly yet since Obama has darker skin it is racism.

I first saw the Bush as Chimp bumper sticker in Austin during his first term as President.

Wrong,

This might not shock some people, but actually you are wrong.

http://www.zazzle.com/gw_bush_a_chi...amy_sticker_bumper_sticker-128685327031702760

 

[tyr_13]

And you would be wrong.

Oh? Then would you care to explain why you think it's so important to prove that Wilson himself is a racist?

I think it's more likely that Wilson kept shooting after Brown was going down, and it wasn't because he feared Brown was charging at him. That could have been incompetence, he wasn't in control of each shot but was just shooting wildly.

Or, he kept shooting because he was pissed off and his anger was out of control.

'Kept shooting' for the fraction of a second it took Brown to fall. Your assessment does not match the evidence, which includes audio. There is no evidence Wilson kept shooting after Brown was down. His shots were not 'wild'.

I think the whole department looks at young black men as thugs more often than not and I think it's unlikely Wilson's behavior is any different. I think that contributed to Wilson causing the whole encounter to be needlessly confrontational from his first interaction with Brown and Johnson. I think that set the situation up for a confrontation that didn't need to happen the way it did.


Good cops don't start out treating jaywalkers like they were pieces of crap. Good cops calmly approach suspects, they don't screech their vehicles back like Rambo, stopping in front of the suspects too close to open the car door.

That's unlikely. I don't believe his initial interaction being more polite would have changed the subsequent interaction in any meaningful way. How would it? Brown would think, 'Well he was so polite in telling us to use the sidewalk, I don't think I'll attack him even if I'm terrified of losing everything I've worked for because of the strongarm robbery I just commited.'

I would not be surprised to find out Wilson did not hear the robbery suspect report but rather was pissed off the two young men didn't get out of the street as he demanded and that turned on his power tripping hormones. But why he turned around to confront the two has little to do with what happened next.

You should be surprised as that is contradicted by the evidence.

I don't agree. You are welcome to your own assessment of the evidence. Don't try to tell me how I made mine. You've already been wrong on that and you are again.

I stand by my assessment of yours. You haven't shown me wrong in the least, and in fact, have added strength to that assessment.

 

[tyr_13]

However Twitty was using it as a racist joke when refering to Obama.

I don't think this distinction will be noticed.

 

[Upchurch]

This kills me. Bush endured that comparison constantly yet since Obama has darker skin it is racism.

Are you upset.that people get treated differently now because of things that happened in the past?

 

[Mike!]

I know when I am right.
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blbushchimplookalikes.htm

How dare you drag facts with supporting evidence into this discussion.

Plus those are funny because Bush was a flying monkey.

 

[Wolrab]

I don't think this distinction will be noticed.

I didn't look at what the Obama picture was. From some of the descriptions I have read, they were in very poor taste. I figured, wrongly, that they were along the lines of Bush and the chimp. I see how offensive that is.

 

[Wolrab]

Are you upset.that people get treated differently now because of things that happened in the past?

Yes. You nailed it. Damned Thracians.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Oh? Then would you care to explain why you think it's so important to prove that Wilson himself is a racist?

I didn't need to prove anything. I was responding to people who were insisting there was no evidence he was. There's evidence. It's not guilt by association, it's learning your craft and spending your entire police career in departments with documented racism problems. How is that not evidence?

And racist preconceptions playing a role is not the same as racism being the main motivator in the killing.

'Kept shooting' for the fraction of a second it took Brown to fall. Your assessment does not match the evidence, which includes audio. There is no evidence Wilson kept shooting after Brown was down. His shots were not 'wild'.

Again with the no evidence? Who's cherry picking here? The kill shot was directly into to top of Brown's head. Either you don't believe he was bull-rushing Wilson in which case Brown was on his way down on the ground, or you have evidence of bull-rushing besides flakey witness with the absurd story. Moving toward Wilson is not the same as charging at Wilson.

I think Brown was moving toward Wilson. All the witnesses said that. Brown turned around and was coming back. That's not evidence of a madman charging with his head down at Wilson. That fits completely with Brown coming back to surrender and he either fell or was getting down on the ground.

Since we can account for all the shots on the audio, and since the shot to the top of Brown's head would have made him instantly limp and downed him, the last shot on the audio was that kill shot to the head. (I've see this. Sometimes when people are fatally shot, they drop instantly. It's distinct and if you've ever seen it you don't forget what it looks like.)

I'm not going over all this crap again. I've discussed the audio, the way it fits with the witnesses and the forensics.

That's unlikely. I don't believe his initial interaction being more polite would have changed the subsequent interaction in any meaningful way. How would it? Brown would think, 'Well he was so polite in telling us to use the sidewalk, I don't think I'll attack him even if I'm terrified of losing everything I've worked for because of the strongarm robbery I just commited.'

If you can't see the problem with a cop approaching everyone with an attitude, I can't help you. Perhaps if you'd read up on the importance of defusing a situation in police work you might get a better understanding of the importance.

 

[Upchurch]

How dare you drag facts with supporting evidence into this discussion.

Plus those are funny because Bush was a flying monkey.

Speaking of dragging facts in, you realize the comparison with Bush is because he made funny faces and the comparison with Obama is because of his race, right?

 

[tyr_13]

I didn't need to prove anything. I was responding to people who were insisting there was no evidence he was. There's evidence. It's not guilt by association, it's learning your craft and spending your entire police career in departments with documented racism problems. How is that not evidence?

That's exactly guilt by association. It's circumstantial evidence.

And racist preconceptions playing a role is not the same as racism being the main motivator in the killing.


Again with the no evidence? Who's cherry picking here? The kill shot was directly into to top of Brown's head. Either you don't believe he was bull-rushing Wilson in which case Brown was on his way down on the ground, or you have evidence of bull-rushing besides flakey witness with the absurd story. Moving toward Wilson is not the same as charging at Wilson.

This evidence contradicts the claim that Brown was shot on the ground. The angle of the shot means that Wilson would have had to lay down to make it from where he was. There is also the physical evidence that indicates his movement forward. This was discussed pages ago. The evidence of charging isn't flaky. It isn't based on any absurd witnesses.

I think Brown was moving toward Wilson. All the witnesses said that. Brown turned around and was coming back. That's not evidence of a madman charging with his head down at Wilson. That fits completely with Brown coming back to surrender and he either fell or was getting down on the ground.

It fits with him refusing orders to get on the ground and charging to attack again. Brown was not on the ground when he was shot.

Since we can account for all the shots on the audio, and since the shot to the top of Brown's head would have made him instantly limp and downed him, the last shot on the audio was that kill shot to the head. (I've see this. Sometimes when people are fatally shot, they drop instantly. It's distinct and if you've ever seen it you don't forget what it looks like.)

I'm not going over all this crap again. I've discussed the audio, the way it fits with the witnesses and the forensics.

You have a hypothesis on how it plays out based on your own personal experiences, but you're making assumptions that are untrue. You've seen one way it happens, therefore, that's how it happened here. But because your assumption of how that happens doesn't apply here, your hypothesis ends up being wrong. Then when people tell you how you're wrong, you can't believe them because you're 'seen it'.

If you can't see the problem with a cop approaching everyone with an attitude, I can't help you. Perhaps if you'd read up on the importance of defusing a situation in police work you might get a better understanding of the importance.

I didn't claim that the attitude wasn't a problem, but that it didn't matter here.

I know the importance of that, enough to know it's called conflict resolution training. Your understanding of the limits of it is lacking. It is a serious problem that police in the US don't employe it well, or aren't trained well in it, but it isn't this problem. Just like the racism in the PD.

 

[Ammonitida]

I didn't need to prove anything. I was responding to people who were insisting there was no evidence he was. There's evidence. It's not guilt by association, it's learning your craft and spending your entire police career in departments with documented racism problems. How is that not evidence?

And racist preconceptions playing a role is not the same as racism being the main motivator in the killing.


Again with the no evidence? Who's cherry picking here? The kill shot was directly into to top of Brown's head. Either you don't believe he was bull-rushing Wilson in which case Brown was on his way down on the ground, or you have evidence of bull-rushing besides flakey witness with the absurd story. Moving toward Wilson is not the same as charging at Wilson.

I think Brown was moving toward Wilson. All the witnesses said that. Brown turned around and was coming back. That's not evidence of a madman charging with his head down at Wilson. That fits completely with Brown coming back to surrender and he either fell or was getting down on the ground.

Since we can account for all the shots on the audio, and since the shot to the top of Brown's head would have made him instantly limp and downed him, the last shot on the audio was that kill shot to the head. (I've see this. Sometimes when people are fatally shot, they drop instantly. It's distinct and if you've ever seen it you don't forget what it looks like.)

I'm not going over all this crap again. I've discussed the audio, the way it fits with the witnesses and the forensics.


If you can't see the problem with a cop approaching everyone with an attitude, I can't help you. Perhaps if you'd read up on the importance of defusing a situation in police work you might get a better understanding of the importance.

You don't travel 20ft to "surrender" (Wilson was yelling at him to STOP, as any cop would do, not ordering him to approach). You don't fall 20ft either. You charge 20ft to attack, as witnessed by every credible witness at the scene. You were so wrong about this case that it's killing you. Nobody who originally sided with you is on your side anymore. You're all alone, and all you have left are arguments from incredulity. What does that tell you?

And no, not every witness said he moved forward. Several of the "witnesses" you relied on to form your opinion said he stayed still, including Dorian Johnson IIRC.

 

[theprestige]

And racist preconceptions playing a role is not the same as racism being the main motivator in the killing.

What role did they play, exactly?

If you can't see the problem with a cop approaching everyone with an attitude, I can't help you. Perhaps if you'd read up on the importance of defusing a situation in police work you might get a better understanding of the importance.

Vague weasel words. Be concrete and to the point: What, exactly, do you accuse Wilson of doing, that transfers the blame for the shooting from Brown to Wilson?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

This might not shock some people, but actually you are wrong.

http://www.zazzle.com/gw_bush_a_chi...amy_sticker_bumper_sticker-128685327031702760

This is my shocked face.

<-----

 

[TheL8Elvis]

And you would be wrong.

I think it's more likely that Wilson kept shooting after Brown was going down, and it wasn't because he feared Brown was charging at him. That could have been incompetence, he wasn't in control of each shot but was just shooting wildly.

Or, he kept shooting because he was pissed off and his anger was out of control.

Because those are the only options.

I think the whole department looks at young black men as thugs more often than not and I think it's unlikely Wilson's behavior is any different. I think that contributed to Wilson causing the whole encounter to be needlessly confrontational from his first interaction with Brown and Johnson. I think that set the situation up for a confrontation that didn't need to happen the way it did.

Good cops don't start out treating jaywalkers like they were pieces of crap. Good cops calmly approach suspects, they don't screech their vehicles back like Rambo, stopping in front of the suspects too close to open the car door.

No true cop ...

I would not be surprised to find out Wilson did not hear the robbery suspect report but rather was pissed off the two young men didn't get out of the street as he demanded and that turned on his power tripping hormones. But why he turned around to confront the two has little to do with what happened next.

If you would not be surprised, then it's because you aren't paying attention to the facts of the case.