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Two points:

1; I didn't find the"GWB looks like a monkey" pictures funny, either. However, the US does not have a century-long history of openly portraying white people of any sort as monkeys in order to denigrate them as subhuman based entirely on skin color, the way it specifically does with black people. Context kills this argument, you can't win the counter here.

2: Wildcat, yet again, is actually somewhat correct, but in a way that makes him worse off. My actual argument was that the police reacted to the crowds that gathered after the Mike Brown shooting like it were a terrorist attack. Those of you who remember the pursuit of the Boston Marathon bombers, who were tossing homemade explosives deliberately filled with schrapnel at police, may recall seeing the same sort of gear that Antonio French pictured on August 9th - again, before any looting had taken place.
 
Two points:

1; I didn't find the"GWB looks like a monkey" pictures funny, either. However, the US does not have a century-long history of openly portraying white people of any sort as monkeys in order to denigrate them as subhuman based entirely on skin color, the way it specifically does with black people. Context kills this argument, you can't win the counter here.
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Fwiw, I agree.
 
There was no 'guy with a toy sword'. You're referencing the Darrien Hunt shooting, but in mixing grey cases in you're weakening your point and giving ammo to those who claim you (and others) are reaching.

The object he had was a sharp sword-like-object, more than capable of being a weapon, not a toy. To characterize it as a toy is wrong. Claiming race had something to do with it isn't supported by anything besides accusation. There is an ongoing civil suit, but otherwise the shooting was ruled justifiable.

I recall there being a video of him fleeing without the sword in hand (as if he had dropped it), and it was later that he was shot in the back.
 
I recall there being a video of him fleeing without the sword in hand (as if he had dropped it), and it was later that he was shot in the back.

There is another thread on that one, but please check the links. (Four of the shots were from the back or side, but he still had the weapon and was running towards a shopping center, defense of others being the justification.)

You'll find that there are no toy swords to be found though. Even if you disagree that that case is arguable, there was no toy sword. There was no 'hands up' for Brown. These details are important.
 
I didn't look at what the Obama picture was. From some of the descriptions I have read, they were in very poor taste. I figured, wrongly, that they were along the lines of Bush and the chimp. I see how offensive that is.

It was a photo of Regan bottlefeeding a chimp with the caption that he was babysitting Obama.

Twitty also sent an email containing a photo of (what look to be New Guinea tribeswomen) with the with an email claiming it was Michelle Obama's graduation photo.

The "bush chimp" thing is a red herring.
 
Not every comparison between a president and a primate are racially motivated or racist jokes, but plenty of racist jokes are comparisons between a president and a primate.
 
Guilt by association: you are seen with a crook, you must be a crook.

Guilt by the odds- more probable than not: racist cops teach you how to do your job and you work in a racist police department for 6+ years

Maybe some of you just don't understand how infectious workplace behavior works.
Behavior can be contagious in the sense that employees often model -- whether consciously or unconsciously -- the actions and attitudes of their workplace peers.

St Louis PD: Being a cop showed me just how racist and violent the police are.
So in 1994, I joined the St. Louis Police Department. I quickly realized how naive I’d been. I was floored by the dysfunctional culture I encountered.

I won’t say all, but many of my peers were deeply racist.

One example: A couple of officers ran a Web site called St. Louis Coptalk, where officers could post about their experience and opinions. At some point during my career, it became so full of racist rants that the site administrator temporarily shut it down. Cops routinely called anyone of color a “thug,” whether they were the victim or just a bystander.

This attitude corrodes the way policing is done.

Black and Blue - Why more diverse police departments won’t put an end to police misconduct.
And, in turn, the most likely victims of fatal police shootings are young black males. According to a ProPublica analysis of federal data on police shootings, young black males ages 15 to 19 are 21 times more likely to be shot and killed by police than their white counterparts. “One way of appreciating that stark disparity,” notes ProPublica, “is to calculate how many more whites over those three years would have had to have been killed for them to have been at equal risk. The number is jarring—185, more than one per week.” What’s most relevant for the diversity of police departments is this fact: While black officers are involved in just 10 percent of police shootings, 78 percent of those they kill are black.

How does racism play a role:
We know, for instance, that officers are more likely to use force against black protesters than white ones. The stats on shooting are just one part of a larger dynamic that applies to police departments across the country, not just individual cops ...
As BuzzFeed’s Adam Serwer notes in an essay on Ferguson, the urban riots of the 1960s—and beyond—were fueled by police abuse, “The recipe for urban riots since 1935 is remarkably consistent and the ingredients are almost always the same: An impoverished and politically disempowered black population refused full American citizenship, a heavy-handed and overwhelmingly white police force, a generous amount of neglect, and frequently, the loss of black life at the hands of the police.”

Wilson's actions are completely consistent with The DoJ Report
FPD engages in a pattern of excessive force in violation of the Fourth Amendment. Many officers are quick to escalate encounters with subjects they perceive to be disobeying their orders or resisting arrest. They have come to rely on ECWs, specifically Tasers®, where less force—or no force at all—would do. They also release canines on unarmed subjects unreasonably and before attempting to use force less likely to cause injury. Some incidents of excessive force result from stops or arrests that have no basis in law. Others are punitive and retaliatory. In addition, FPD records suggest a tendency to use unnecessary force against vulnerable groups such as people with mental health conditions or cognitive disabilities, and juvenile students. Furthermore, as discussed in greater detail in Part III.C. of this report, Ferguson’s pattern of using excessive force disproportionately harms African-American members of the community. The overwhelming majority of force—almost 90%—is used against African Americans.
There are pages of specific incidents where police tased people that didn't obey them, even when there were more than enough police around to manage the person without the taser. That amount to punishment, not suspect control.
FPD Use of Force Often Results from Unlawful Arrest and Officer Escalation
For anyone in this thread that doesn't get it why Wilson's initial behavior toward Brown and Johnson contributed to the shooting, read this section of the report.
In the above examples, force resulted from temporary detentions or attempted arrests for which officers lacked legal authority. Force at times appeared to be used as punishment for non-compliance with an order that lacked legal authority. Even where FPD officers have legal grounds to stop or arrest, however, they frequently take actions that ratchet up tensions and needlessly escalate the situation to the point that they feel force is necessary.

Some of us look at that and understand why it is wrong. Some in the thread look at it and claim it's the fault of the innocent person for standing up for their rights, for being tired of being mistreated by one cop after another. It's living in a police state for those young black men that are innocent of any crime, or maybe they committed some petty crime. How can you have no empathy for what that must be like to live with?

And given this report, clearly it's likely Wilson fit right in with his department. But we also have evidence it was Wilson's modus operandi. Yelling epithets at two young men just because they were walking in the middle of a residential street is being needlessly confrontational. And that confrontational behavior continued.

I'm at a loss how people in this thread dismiss that kind of needless escalation and confrontation as, "so what?"
 
Brown was disobeying Wilson's orders by attacking him, then running, then running back at Wilson. Brown did every bit of escalating. Brown was part of a culture that didn't like cops, especially white cops. How could he not escalate a situation with a white cop. Brown was a racist because people he knew didn't like white people.
 
Brown was part of a culture that didn't like cops, especially white cops.
If this is true, it is not without cause. As per the DOJ report, the Ferguson justice system was systematically oppressing the community they were supposed to be protecting and serving.

Brown was a racist because people he knew didn't like white people.
How do you know this? What are you basing this on?
 
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Brown was disobeying Wilson's orders by attacking him, then running, then running back at Wilson. Brown did every bit of escalating. Brown was part of a culture that didn't like cops, especially white cops. How could he not escalate a situation with a white cop. Brown was a racist because people he knew didn't like white people.

I am unsure of what you're saying or trying to imply.
 
Guilt by association: you are seen with a crook, you must be a crook.

Guilt by the odds- more probable than not: racist cops teach you how to do your job and you work in a racist police department for 6+ years

That's still guilt by association! 'You work with racist cops, therefore you're a racist cop.'


So the cop who wrote he first article, are they racist? Are they only not racist because they wrote that article? If they hand not written that article, would you assume they are racist?

I reject calling someone racist because they work with racists. I reject assuming someone is a gangster because they grew up with gangsters, even though the mechanism is substantially the same as the one you describe for cops. Your argument if faulty and fundamentally unjust.

I've known more than a few racist nurses. Can I assume that you're racist until you prove otherwise?


How does racism play a role:

Wilson's actions are completely consistent with The DoJ Report
There are pages of specific incidents where police tased people that didn't obey them, even when there were more than enough police around to manage the person without the taser. That amount to punishment, not suspect control.

There is an entire thread about how problematic the justice system there was/is. The only person arguing that it isn't a problem is Wildcat.

For anyone in this thread that doesn't get it why Wilson's initial behavior toward Brown and Johnson contributed to the shooting, read this section of the report.

Irrelevant to this incident. If the initial interaction had escalated, you might have a point. However, it did not. The escalations were not the result of Wilson being an ass here.

It is a problem, but it is not every problem.

Some of us look at that and understand why it is wrong.

No, you don't, not completely. You wouldn't be trying to shoehorn it into places it didn't contribute if you did.

Some in the thread look at it and claim it's the fault of the innocent person for standing up for their rights, for being tired of being mistreated by one cop after another.

That wasn't Brown. He was not innocent, he was not standing up for his rights.

It's living in a police state for those young black men that are innocent of any crime, or maybe they committed some petty crime. How can you have no empathy for what that must be like to live with?

Emotional straw man. People can have plenty of empathy and compassion for people who live with that, recognize it's a problem, but still find any specific incident to not be caused by racism. They can still recognize the agency people like Brown have to not attack police, not strong arm shopkeepers, and even not to walk in the middle of the road.

That people disagree with you is not in any way evidence they lack empathy.

And given this report, clearly it's likely Wilson fit right in with his department. But we also have evidence it was Wilson's modus operandi. Yelling epithets at two young men just because they were walking in the middle of a residential street is being needlessly confrontational. And that confrontational behavior continued.

I'm at a loss how people in this thread dismiss that kind of needless escalation and confrontation as, "so what?"

Because the relevant escalations were from Brown. You're skipping steps and making straw men because of it. You cannot say people are saying 'so what' to escalations they do not believe were Wilsons any more than you can say atheists worship a Satan they don't believe exist.
 
If this is true, it is not without cause. As per the DOJ report, the Ferguson justice system was systematically oppressing the community they were supposed to be protecting and serving.


How do you know this? What are you basing this on?


Guilt by the odds. It can be misapplied both ways.
 
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That's still guilt by association! 'You work with racist cops, therefore you're a racist cop.'

That's not really the assertion, though - rather, it was that he was working for a legal and justice system that systematically discriminated against poor, and particularly poor black, people. It's the difference between being in a picture with a Blood, and being a picture throwing up a Blood hand sign, while wearing a red shirt, red jeans, red sneakers, and a red bandana, while your pal cuts up crack rocks in the background. Being a Ferguson PD member, by ll accounts, is closer to the latter than to the former.

And this is coming from someone who found Dorion Johnson's initial account to be odd at best. Wilson bumped them with his door, and it slammed shut? And then he tried to pull Brown in through a car window? Huh?
 
That is not what I've said at all, nor does the prosecutor's dilemma apply, except that it suggests people in the discussion are not listening to what I've said and are instead applying confirmation bias.


In your Wiki example:
if a perpetrator is known to have the same blood type as a defendant and 10% of the population share that blood type, then to argue on that basis alone that the probability of the defendant being guilty is 90% makes the prosecutors's fallacy
The prosecutor's dilemma involves transferring the likelihood of a blood type to the likelihood of guilt. Guilt and blood types are obviously different things.

I am applying the likelihood of racist behavior to the likelihood of racist behavior. And I've said multiple times I am not drawing the conclusion the likelihood of racist behavior means Wilson murdered Brown.



To use the prosecutor's dilemma as an analogy, my point would be people in the debate are insisting the 90% of the population that can be eliminated by the blood evidence is not relevant evidence to be considered in the deliberations.

The data only refers to the likelihood the defendant's blood type is the same type as the perpetrator (blood found at the scene). It says nothing about guilt or innocence, only blood type. But it is relevant and it is evidence.


So going from the analogy to this case, let's say 90% of the Ferguson police have some racist influenced behavior, in particular: assuming a young black male is a criminal until proven otherwise, treating all young black men confrontationally at first approach, while not approaching young white males the same way and so on. That doesn't make 90% of the department racists. But it does mean 90% of the department acts on preconceived biases about young black men they encounter on the job. (You can use a smaller %, the principles are the same.)

Let's say 10% are actually full blown racist and 10% actively resist racist behavior in themselves and of their coworkers.

That gives Wilson a 10% chance of being a great guy, 10% chance of being an outright racist and 80% chance of at least policing with racially biased preconceptions about young black men he polices. Regardless of lowering the 80%, it is still greater than 50% given the DoJ report.

We don't have the actual percentages, but we do know the influence of suspect's race on police behavior was prevalent enough in the department for the DoJ to find it serious. We also know racism was bad enough in the police department where Wilson got his initial experience that the whole department had to be dissolved and rebuilt from scratch. He has spent his whole career in racist police departments. The odds that had no effect on his own police behavior are small. Is it possible he was one of the smaller percent that resisted treating blacks without preconceptions? Yes, but the probability is not high.

Is that evidence Wilson is a racist cop? No. Is it evidence there was a high likelihood Wilson had biases against blacks that affected how he interacted with young black males? Yes Does that mean he murdered Brown? Of course not.

It's one piece of evidence that is relevant. It's not proof of anything. Just like the matching blood types, it adds weight but it is not a determinant in and of itself.


Just as the matching blood types eliminated 90% of the population, it's only one piece of evidence to consider. We have another piece:

One witness said the initial encounter was significantly confrontational, both the order to get on the sidewalk and the speeding of Wilson's car in reverse to return to where the young men were.

Scenario one: Instead of calmly approaching two men to interview them, Wilson confronted them in an aggressive way. The witness says this is the scenario.

Scenario two: Wilson calmly approached the two and Brown attacked Wilson. Why do that? If you were worried about the recent robbery, why not take off running before Wilson got out of his vehicle?


The witness said Wilson opened his car door hitting Brown with it, Brown responded by punching Wilson, a gun was drawn, in a struggle, Brown was wounded. Multiple witness saw a struggle at the vehicle through the window with Wilson inside, Brown outside. The forensic's match this scenario.

There is no reason not to conclude this is what happened.


Wilson was confrontational, a confrontation ensued. It contributed to the subsequent events. It might have been a completely different situation had Wilson not made it confrontational from the start.

That is the very thing the DoJ found in Ferguson. And we've seen it multiple times on news videos with excessive needless beatings of people who run, with pepper spray in the eyes of peaceful protestors. And with shooting fleeing suspects in the back who did not pose the threat that was necessary for that level of force.

We also see nervous overreactions that lead to dozens of bullets pumped into people holding cell phones and screwdrivers. And we see outright mistakes that become lethal like this old man playing cop in the latest killing who thought he was firing a taser but which turned out to be a gun. There was the baby injured by a compression grenade that landed in his crib. And the 12 yr old with a toy who was shot within seconds of the police arrival and the guy in the Walmart who had a pellet gun from the store shelf that was killed.

Police attitudes, police training, preconceived biases against certain people, police ambiance within a department, you can't just ignore all this and say cop good, black male bad. You can't say Brown was a thug because he pushed a store clerk and reacted to an aggressive cop while not also considering the majority of police in Ferguson were needlessly confrontational against young black men.



When I get time later I'll address how I looked at the DoJ discussion of the eyewitnesses. It's another place I've been falsely accused of not looking at the evidence.
 
That's not really the assertion, though - rather, it was that he was working for a legal and justice system that systematically discriminated against poor, and particularly poor black, people. It's the difference between being in a picture with a Blood, and being a picture throwing up a Blood hand sign, while wearing a red shirt, red jeans, red sneakers, and a red bandana, while your pal cuts up crack rocks in the background. Being a Ferguson PD member, by ll accounts, is closer to the latter than to the former.

And this is coming from someone who found Dorion Johnson's initial account to be odd at best. Wilson bumped them with his door, and it slammed shut? And then he tried to pull Brown in through a car window? Huh?


I don't follow your analogy here. All that would be evidence of what, for the person hanging with etc the Bloods? It would indicate that they are a Blood. Would you be alright calling them a racist (or a pot head, or violent, whatever) because they were in the Bloods? Wilson was obviously part of the PD, so that's not the question.

Wilson, like all the officers, is guilty of participating in a gravely unjust system. His motivations for doing so are unknown though. He could be racist, or simply tolerated racism for whatever reason. The same is true of all the officers, including the (two?) black officers.
 
Wilson, like all the officers, is guilty of participating in a gravely unjust system. His motivations for doing so are unknown though. He could be racist, or simply tolerated racism for whatever reason. The same is true of all the officers, including the (two?) black officers.

I think it was three at the time of Brown's death.

I have not really been following this other line of discussion in the thread, but I think this is generally correct. If Wilson had been a member of a group, like the KKK, whose specific purpose was to be racist, then I think it would be fair to say that he was a racist. A police department, even a horribly racist police department, does not exist for the explicit purpose of being racist. It exists to uphold the law, even if they do it badly.

Maybe Wilson was racist. Maybe he simply turned a blind eye to what was going on around him. Either way, he and his fellow police officers are no heroes and the community would be better off with them finding new means of employment.
 
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