Michael Brown shooting II

[Wolrab]

As had been mentioned several times, the body of Brown was covered in a very reasonable amount of time, IIRC within the hour.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

FWIW: My list of exmaples was not meant to be exhaustive. Just some of the things that have bothered me since I first learned of this incident.

Of course. I did, I guess, make the mistake of assuming the list would be of some things that you considered more prominent mistakes.

I think I have been pretty clear explaining myself. The 35' claim bothers me when combined with everything else. At best this case was bungled from the start.

You haven't demonstrated that that it was anything other than an accidental mis-statement, or that it affected the outcome of the case in any tangible way. So at that point, I understand you are concerned with it. I don't see that you have given anyone else a reason that we should be concerned with it.

Brown should not have been in the street all day. Where I live it is customary to cover a body with a clean sheet to protect the dignity of the deceased. In some jurisdictions police officers will erect a tarp. This can be done while preserving the crime scene.

You appear to be claiming the body was in the street all day uncovered. It wasn't.

http://www.stltoday.com/timeline-fo...ble_79c7ed69-4fbe-57fb-bf77-e1888dfffd4e.html

12:02 p.m. Ferguson police Officer Darren Wilson reports "disturbance in progress" in Canfield Green housing complex.
...
about 12:10 p.m. Firefighter covers body with sheet.

8 minutes.

The release of the robbery video, something the public had a right to have and should have, was done very poorly. It seemed simply as a ploy to impeach Brown (which it rightly did). Given the bad relations between police and citizens I can only say that they, the police, did the best they could to bare their contempt for the citizens of Ferguson.

I agree they could have done much better with releasing the video. However, if that was really "the best they could to bare their contempt for the citizens of Ferguson", I think the citizens of Ferguson will be ok.

Then there is the witness testimony. I don't think much of witness testimony anymore. I don't think it is conclusive. Clearly there are people who are motivated by bias on the side of Brown. Not all of them. I don't think a coherent picture arises from witness statements. The forensic evidence helps support some of the claims and gives us some direction but it's not definitive.

Forensic evidence supports a lot of factual statements about where wilson and brown were, and where they could have been. While I agree it doesn't definitively answer every conceivable question, I don't find myself needing it to. We have the scenario described by Wilson. Nothing in the physical evidence disproves it. Much of it suggests that it is true.

I guess this is the point where we simply disagree, unless you want to continue to discuss specifics. I think in the cases where you have questioned the forensics evidence, you have been given reasonable answers to your questions or supposed discrepancies by many posters in this thread.

 

[bobdroege7]

Is it possible that his head was tucked with his chin close to his chest rather than having his spine straight?

And do bullets always continue in a straight line when encountering bone?

 

[RandFan]

¹I really don't see how this incorrect public statement changes anything. t certainly didn't influence the GJ or theinvestigation, and anyone at the scene could see it was much more than 35' from the van.

I don't know how unusual that was. I drove right by this scene on my way to work shortly after 8am, over 4 hours after she was killed. The local lanes were shut down, everyone was put in the express lanes. The body was in plain view to the thousands of motorists driving by, slumped over in the driver's seat. Illinois State Police were still measuring the crime scene, taking pictures, and collecting evidence. I admit it was avery disturbing thing to see on the way to work, and I really wish I hadn't seen it. But it takes time to properly investigate such a scene.

1. It has the perception of showing a contempt for the community.
2. The chief of police apologized for the incompetence. I don't know how "unusual" it is. I know it is an unnecessary middle finger to the community. If it is possible to cover a victim and preserve the crime scene then why the hell not? Your example is disgusting and demonstrates indifference.

 

[Mike!]

FWIW: My list of exmaples was not meant to be exhaustive. Just some of the things that have bothered me since I first learned of this incident.

I think I have been pretty clear explaining myself. The 35' claim bothers me when combined with everything else. At best this case was bungled from the start. Brown should not have been in the street all day. Where I live it is customary to cover a body with a clean sheet to protect the dignity of the deceased. In some jurisdictions police officers will erect a tarp. This can be done while preserving the crime scene. The release of the robbery video, something the public had a right to have and should have, was done very poorly. It seemed simply as a ploy to impeach Brown (which it rightly did). Given the bad relations between police and citizens I can only say that they, the police, did the best they could to bare their contempt for the citizens of Ferguson. Then there is the witness testimony. I don't think much of witness testimony anymore. I don't think it is conclusive. Clearly there are people who are motivated by bias on the side of Brown. Not all of them. I don't think a coherent picture arises from witness statements. The forensic evidence helps support some of the claims and gives us some direction but it's not definitive.

It was "in the street" for four and a half hours, roughly, and only uncovered for about 15 minutes. It could have all been taken care of much sooner, but there were unusual circumstances, like bullets flying through the air from places unknown, and whatnot.

According to police logs, the county police received a report of the shooting at 12:07, and their officers began arriving around 12:15. Videos taken by bystanders show that in the first minutes after Mr. Brown’s death, officers quickly secured the area with yellow tape. In one video, several police cars were on the scene, and officers were standing close to their cars, a distance away from Mr. Brown’s body.

Around 12:10, a paramedic who happened to be nearby on another call approached Mr. Brown’s body, checked for a pulse, and observed the blood and “injuries incompatible with life,” said his supervisor, Chris Cebollero, the chief of emergency medical services at Christian Hospital. He estimated that it had been around 12:15 when a sheet was retrieved from an ambulance and used to cover Mr. Brown.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/24/u...meline-4-hours-on-a-ferguson-street.html?_r=0

I know you're playing catch up here, on a couple of epic long threads no less, but there's truly very little we haven't covered at this point.

 

[RandFan]

Is it possible that his head was tucked with his chin close to his chest rather than having his spine straight?

And do bullets always continue in a straight line when encountering bone?

Of course it is possible. I don't think the evidence is conclusive either way.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Sorry to jump in, but I'd like to split some hairs.

I'll accept "the physical evidence is not inconsistent with Wilson's account", but I'd dispute "the physical evidence supports Wilson's account".

The core of the argument is what happened when Brown turned around and moved back towards Wilson. IIRC Wilson's account has phrases like "hulked-up" and "demon face" which support his claim that he was in fear for his life and shot in self-defence. The physical evidence is not able to support these key claims.
I'd be very surprised if the physical evidence was inconsistent with Wilson's account as he was there and knows what happened - he'd have to be a very stupid cop to say anything that could be falsified by physical evidence. All he has to do is be selective and emphasise those elements that support his account.

I agree that's a hair worth splitting, to a degree anyway.

Yes, the evidence doesn't really tell us about Wilsons mental state - he has to try to draw us a picture of that using descriptive language, that may or may not be embellished.

But for the main, the fact that evidence is not inconsistent with wilson is still pretty huge, considering what a different tale some of the witnesses had.

 

[RandFan]

It was "in the street" for four and a half hours, roughly, and only uncovered for about 15 minutes. It could have all been taken care of much sooner, but there were unusual circumstances, like bullets flying through the air from places unknown, and whatnot.


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/24/u...meline-4-hours-on-a-ferguson-street.html?_r=0

I know you're playing catch up here, on a couple of epic long threads no less, but there's truly very little we haven't covered at this point.

Thanks Mike. The victim's father saw his son uncovered in the street and tried to approach his son. After the body was covered the feet and blood were still visible. Let's be clear, even the police concede that they handled the situation poorly.

 

[WildCat]

¹I really don't see how this incorrect public statement changes anything. t certainly didn't influence the GJ or theinvestigation, and anyone at the scene could see it was much more than 35' from the van.

I don't know how unusual that was. I drove right by [URL="http://

1. It has the perception of showing a contempt for the community.
2. The chief of police apologized for the incompetence. I don't know how "unusual" it is. I know it is an unnecessary middle finger to the community. If it is possible to cover a victim and preserve the crime scene then why the hell not? Your example is disgusting and demonstrates indifference.

I don't see how a simple misstatement "shows contempt for the community". It's pretty much the norm, hell 9/11 conspiracy theorists are still running with such misstatements all these years later.

You cannot cover up a body while investigating, pictures must be taken showing it from multiple angles and uncovered to show how it is situated. The one I saw was perhaps unusually long because the shooting happened in the dark and the pictures needed to be taken in daylight, plus who knows how far the ISP had to travel with their equipment and investigators. Normally Chicago police handles murder investigations in the city, but this one happened on an interstate highway so it was ISP jurisdiction.

 

[pharphis]

I believe Wilson was removed from the scene shortly after the incident happened, due to medical attention and the danger of having him in the area. Considering how it is pointed out in this thread ad nauseam that the chief made mistakes in his statements on the physical evidence, and Wilson gave his statement shortly after the hospital release, then I can't imagine he was able to twist it to fit the theory. He had to have been going off of what he remembered.

You may be right. I just think that Dorian got to, literally, watch the whole thing, while Wilson was dealing with everything as it came at him. I would think that Dorian would have just as clear of a recollection of the events as Wilson.

I don't think Wilson did twist the information, I was just suggesting that the police should be better at it than most people. They know whether a shot will be determined as being close-range vs long, etc.

 

[RandFan]

¹I don't see how a simple misstatement "shows contempt for the community". It's pretty much the norm, hell 9/11 conspiracy theorists are still running with such misstatements all these years later.

²You cannot cover up a body while investigating, pictures must be taken showing it from multiple angles and uncovered to show how it is situated. The one I saw was perhaps unusually long because the shooting happened in the dark and the pictures needed to be taken in daylight, plus who knows how far the ISP had to travel with their equipment and investigators. Normally Chicago police handles murder investigations in the city, but this one happened on an interstate highway so it was ISP jurisdiction.

1. I've explained this at length.
2. I provided a source that demonstrates that you can preserve the crime scene before CSI arrives and after and still preserve the dignity of the victim. If you bother to check the link I provided you will see for yourself that is the case. In fact, they eventually did as the source suggests and erected a barrier. So, your point is moot.

 

[Mike!]

Thanks Mike. The victim's father saw his son uncovered in the street and tried to approach his son. After the body was covered the feet and blood were still visible. Let's be clear, even the police concede that they handled the situation poorly.

Agreed. Michael Brown was a larger than average individual and a second sheet was clearly in order. But he wasn't uncovered in the street for four hours as we often still hear in the media.
We are discussing two, although closely related, different events here. The shooting itself, and the aftermath.
Without question, the aftermath has been a bungled effort at best.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Here is a picture posted on 9/11:
https://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/canfield-map-new-2.jpg

Someone linked to this back then and of course all the naysayers were more concerned about the site than the information. It seems CTH was right and the Daily Koz was wrong. The koz author has this in his bio:

http://www.dailykos.com/user/Shaun King
You may notice Journalist is absent. Reading his crap explains why.

You beat me to it - sept 5th:
http://theconservativetreehouse.com...ional-tools-witnesses-open-discussion-thread/
The distance between the vehicle and body was calculated as 632 pixels corresponding to the hypotenuse of a triangle with sides of 509 pixels and 375 pixels. On the distance key given by Google at the bottom right of the satellite view 104 pixels corresponds to 20 feet yielding 121.5 feet from Officer Wilson police vehicle to Brown’s body. (center of rear bumper SUV to top of Brown’s head)

 

[RandFan]

Agreed. Michael Brown was a larger than average individual. A second sheet was clearly in order. We are discussing two, although closely related, different events here. The shooting itself, and the aftermath. Without question, the aftermath has been a bungled effort at best.

I will agree that there are in fact two different events. I'm not sure if it is at all helpful to put everything in one basked and judge Ferguson police. At the least I think it might be indicative of the strained relations.

 

[Mike!]

Here is a picture posted on 9/11:
https://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/canfield-map-new-2.jpg

Someone linked to this back then and of course all the naysayers were more concerned about the site than the information. It seems CTH was right and the Daily Koz was wrong. The koz author has this in his bio:

http://www.dailykos.com/user/Shaun King
You may notice Journalist is absent. Reading his crap explains why.

That was me. I'm still trying to get the tomato stains out.

 

[Ammonitida]

Here is a picture posted on 9/11:
https://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/canfield-map-new-2.jpg

Someone linked to this back then and of course all the naysayers were more concerned about the site than the information. It seems CTH was right and the Daily Koz was wrong. The koz author has this in his bio:

http://www.dailykos.com/user/Shaun King
You may notice Journalist is absent. Reading his crap explains why.

It's rich for people to complain about the "conservativetreehouse" while posting links to dailykos or Gawker.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I've said before, I don't believe Wilson's specific story where Brown stops and "bulked up" in the middle of charging at him - that's the sort of thing you'd see in a cartoon.

I don't believe it either, mostly because that's not what he claimed happened. In fact he specifically stated that Brown didn't slow down or stop during the charge. He said that Brown did the "hulking up" prior to charging and that after the first volley of shots he held fire and shouted at Brown to stop, that he only fired the last volley when Brown didn't stop.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

I'm not here to win a contest. If you want to have a discussion I'm more than happy to answer your questions and to engage with you. I've changed my mind on this forum many, many times in the past. I'm sincere. I'm also human. You choose. I will answer any question that is put to me in a neutral tone. I'm not here to be browbeaten or patronized

Is that all you gleaned from my post!?


Why do you keep insisting that the evidence requires Browns face to be parallel to the ground when he was shot, when it doesn't require any such thing?


( Skull borrowed from Mike!'s diagram of the bullet trajectories from the autopsy report )

 

[tsig]

¹I really don't see how this incorrect public statement changes anything. t certainly didn't influence the GJ or theinvestigation, and anyone at the scene could see it was much more than 35' from the van.

I don't know how unusual that was. I drove right by [URL="http://

1. It has the perception of showing a contempt for the community.
2. The chief of police apologized for the incompetence. I don't know how "unusual" it is. I know it is an unnecessary middle finger to the community. If it is possible to cover a victim and preserve the crime scene then why the hell not? Your example is disgusting and demonstrates indifference.

You might be interested in this:

Apparently we've decided that we won't tolerate broken windows any more. But we haven't found the fortitude to do something about broken people. To put it plainly: just as neighborhood thugs could once break windows with impunity, police officers can generally kill with impunity. They can shoot unarmed men and lie about it. They can roll up and execute a child with a toy as casually as one might in Grand Theft Auto. They can bumble around opening doors with their gun hand and kill bystanders, like a character in a dark farce, with little fear of serious consequences. They can choke you to death for getting a little mouthy about selling loose cigarettes. They can shoot you because they aren't clear on who the bad guy is, and they can shoot you because they're terrible shots, and they can shoot you because they saw something that might be a weapon in your hand — something that can be, frankly, any *********** thing at all, including nothing.

http://www.popehat.com/

 

[RandFan]

Apparently we've decided that we won't tolerate broken windows any more. But we haven't found the fortitude to do something about broken people. To put it plainly: just as neighborhood thugs could once break windows with impunity, police officers can generally kill with impunity. They can shoot unarmed men and lie about it. They can roll up and execute a child with a toy as casually as one might in Grand Theft Auto. They can bumble around opening doors with their gun hand and kill bystanders, like a character in a dark farce, with little fear of serious consequences. They can choke you to death for getting a little mouthy about selling loose cigarettes. They can shoot you because they aren't clear on who the bad guy is, and they can shoot you because they're terrible shots, and they can shoot you because they saw something that might be a weapon in your hand — something that can be, frankly, any *********** thing at all, including nothing.

Thank you. Good post.