Michael Brown shooting II

[RandFan]

I'd be very surprised if the physical evidence was inconsistent with Wilson's account as he was there and knows what happened - he'd have to be a very stupid cop to say anything that could be falsified by physical evidence. All he has to do is be selective and emphasise those elements that support his account.

It happens all of the time. In Florida a man died while in custody, later a video surfaced that called into account the claims of the officers.

http://thebluepaper.com/tag/florida-department-of-law-enforcement/

AIU, it's not stupidity but hubris and in some if not many jurisdictions the police will do all they can to cover their own. If this is true, and I only have my anecdotal observations to support it at the moment, police are getting the message that corruption and brutality are tolerated in some law enforcement divisions.

 

[RandFan]

I'm wondering about this 35 feet from the blood splatters to Brown. Is that measured from the splatter to Brown's head, feet or somewhere in between?

Here is a article that explains everything.

 

[RandFan]

¹And you're basing that on what, exactly?

²ETA: Better yet, what exactly are you implying happened then? If the bullet path that you are looking at doesn't jive with your theory, then what do you think happened? I get that you keep repeating "I don't know, I don't know, nobody knows?" If you are willing to say that a theory told to you is wrong, then what are you implying?

1. A.) I was a fullback in High school. I've been watching football for about 50 years. Lineman start in a crouched position and will remain crouched as they contact other players. If no contact is made and you want to sack the quarterback you don't remain in a crouched position. Players often bend down just prior to contact with the ball carrier but they don't run for 35 feet double over/crouched/body down/etc. (my understanding of the incident and the scene may be skewed I'll concede but as I understand it at the moment, it sounds unlikely).
2. I've made clear that I've sincerely considered both sides of this and I can't come to a conclusion. It's not difinitive. I accept the GJ's decision and I accept our justice system. I don't have to shut up just because I'm uncomfortable with an outcome and I resent being brow beaten. This isn't about me or what I think. This is a public forum, a place to have an exchange of ideas. I'm honest and sincere in wanting to discuss this case.

 

[Cylinder]

Here is a article that explains everything.

That article has.. issues ...as been discussed previously in this thread.

 

[Mike!]

Here is a article that explains everything.

No, that's an article with a clear cut agenda, taking a misquote by the media and running with it. It explains nothing whatsoever.

Do we have any actual video evidence of anyone officially stating the '35 feet from the vehicle' "lie", and for that matter, when and how does the misquote "help" the police, when the physical evidence itself does the job just fine?
Make no mistake, there are people who need people to continue to believe this is more sinister than it appears.

 

[plague311]

[*]A.) I was a fullback in High school. I've been watching football for about 50 years. Lineman start in a crouched position and will remain crouched as they contact other players. If no contact is made and you want to sack the quarterback you don't remain in a crouched position. Players often bend down just prior to contact with the ball carrier but they don't run for 35 feet double over/crouched/body down/etc. (my understanding of the incident and the scene may be skewed I'll concede but as I understand it at the moment, it sounds unlikely).

Ok, so can you provide anything that states Brown was A) Trained to be a football player B) Trained to tackle like they do in professional football or C) Had a clear frame of mind to understand what he was doing, and considered his "form" while turning around to go back after Wilson? He was probably in pain, shot in the arm has to hurt a little, even if adrenaline is pumping. He attacked a police officer, which showed he wasn't thinking clearly. Considering that football players tackle or grapple on average of 20ish times per game, and probably triple that during training, I wouldn't assume that they are in a delusional state of mind, or confused as to what they are doing when tackling. It's their life's work and they've been doing it since they were kids. Repetition provides them with solid form. This is like a weird appeal to authority. Brown wasn't interested in perfect tackling form, he was interested in getting to the officer quickly.

[*]I've made clear that I've sincerely considered both sides of this and I can't come to a conclusion. It's not difinitive. I accept the GJ's decision and I accept our justice system. I don't have to shut up just because I'm uncomfortable with an outcome and I resent being brow beaten. This isn't about me or what I think. This is a public forum, a place to have an exchange of ideas. I'm honest and sincere in wanting to discuss this case.

I don't believe you have sincerely considered both sides as the only thing I generally see you do is discount what Wilson says, while disregarding a lot of the information given to you. On the surface it appears like you're accepting of the information that has been broken down, but as previously seen with the "Mike! thank you" post and then almost immediate disregard for the comment you were thanking him for, leads me to believe that you aren't actually absorbing any of it. Which is what I am trying to figure out. I didn't ask you what you thought of the entire case, that's just a blanket statement you've been tossing out for the last few pages.

I am saying, you don't "buy" that Brown was in that position. So...then...what? What was happening? What is your theory? Are you implying he was already dead and Wilson kept shooting? Are you implying that he was leaning over holding his arm and Wilson just decided to finish his ass off? Are you thinking that Brown was already done, but Wilson just felt like killing himself a black guy? WHAT?! What are you saying? I get it, you really don't know about the entire case, but you're not picking the entire case apart. You've been hellbent on this bending over thing for multiple pages now. If you don't agree with the multiple, detailed analysis from Phantom and the like, then what do you think is the cause? Saying I don't know is getting no where, it's been circular forever now.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

...

To be struck in the head the way brown was, a man taller than Wilson, he would have had to be bent over. I don't know what degree his body was or his head was but it most certainly wasn't in a natural position for charging.

What is your proposed scenario of how Wilson put a shot in the top of Brown's head?

The options I see are:

• Brown was leaning forward and head was tilted, such that a bullet struck top of head.
• Wilson was elevated ( by some means ) that enabled him to shoot downward toward the top of Brown's head.
• Brown was prone on the ground and Wilson was prone also, enabling him to target the top of Brown's head

Do you have another scenario that I am overlooking?

 

[RandFan]

Is it just me, or have Michael Brown, Eric Garner, and Trayvon Martin been transformed into virtually the same person in the minds of many if not most of the people protesting these days? The differences in these cases are overlooked to favor their preferred narrative.

Yes, these are all part of a larger pattern, which is a violent response to normal behavior on the part of black people. I can understand leaving Mike Brown out, since he may have been violent towards Wilson - but that does not justify how the police treated the rest of that community. You have missed the point - these people are *all* individuals, but it's the absurd response that shows that the people interacting with them, ignored their individuality. The outcry over all of this, is because they were treated as some menacing Borg, rather than as actual people.

I agree with Mumbles, it might simply be media fixation on what are otherwise typical events (see Summer of the Shark). I wish a skeptical reporter would do an analysis, unlike Shark attacks I'm not sure how confident we can be of the analysis.

In any event, unlike shark attacks, concerns about police brutality are significant no matter what the relative risks of being brutalized.

If I had to guess there are various subgroup perceptions. Including those who feel that these incidents are hyped to sell news (if it bleeds it leads). These are skeptics who feel these sensationalized stories harm the reputation of otherwise hardworking and decent police officers who put their lives at risk to protect the people who treat them with scorn.

Then there are those who jump at every possible outrage and assume the very worst about the police in general. They believe that racism is endemic to much of law enforcement.

There are others, some with conflicted views and what I think are reasonable concerns that should be part of a national dialog.

 

[RandFan]

That article has.. issues ...as been discussed previously in this thread.

No, that's an article with a clear cut agenda, taking a misquote by the media and running with it. It explains nothing whatsoever.

Do we have any actual video evidence of anyone officially stating the '35 feet from the vehicle' "lie", and for that matter, when and how does the misquote "help" the police, when the physical evidence itself does the job just fine?
Make no mistake, there are people who need people to continue to believe this is more sinister than it appears.

Sorry folks, I concede that I have not been able to read every page. I will accept your say so that the article is flawed and not probative. Could you point me to another source.

I will try harder to choose my sources but please, if something is wrong could you provide a source?

 

[RandFan]

I don't believe you have sincerely considered both sides...

Brown was prone on the ground and Wilson was prone also, enabling him to target the top of Brown's head

I'm not here to win a contest. If you want to have a discussion I'm more than happy to answer your questions and to engage with you. I've changed my mind on this forum many, many times in the past. I'm sincere. I'm also human. You choose. I will answer any question that is put to me in a neutral tone. I'm not here to be browbeaten or patronized

 

[RandFan]

Do we have any actual video evidence of anyone officially stating the '35 feet from the vehicle...

Unless I'm missing something, yes, we do.

When Chief Belmar sat down the next day to brief the press on his summary of the facts, he stated at 1:13 (and then even more emphatically at 6:01) in the video below, "The entire scene, from approximately the car door (of Officer Wilson) to the shooting, is, uh, about 35 feet."

 

[TheL8Elvis]

That article has.. issues ...as been discussed previously in this thread.

No, that's an article with a clear cut agenda, taking a misquote by the media and running with it. It explains nothing whatsoever.

Do we have any actual video evidence of anyone officially stating the '35 feet from the vehicle' "lie", and for that matter, when and how does the misquote "help" the police, when the physical evidence itself does the job just fine?
Make no mistake, there are people who need people to continue to believe this is more sinister than it appears.

Just to pile on - that article - and Shaun King - have issues. And it's been discussed in the thread.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Unless I'm missing something, yes, we do.

Can you explain why you think this statement from the Police chief (that went uncorrected) poses a huge problem ?

Also, AFAIK - this was the only time this statement was given. I'm open to being corrected.

Suppose the police used that public statement to measure witness testimony.It's my understanding that police sometime "release" incorrect information in order to vet witness statements, and see who might change theirs.

AFAIK, the correct measurements were used in the investigation, and presented to the GJ, so what exactly is the problem ?

 

[davefoc]

Okay time once and for all to kill this whole "He was falling Myth"

Time for a Physics lesson. All objects unaffected by air resistance fall at the same.

This rate is based on Earth's Gravity, which has an acceleration of 9.81m/s²
We know that the final 4 shots were fired in a time of 2 second based on the audio recording of the shooting.

The shortest time for the three hits is ~1.5 seconds.

Brown was 77 inches tall or 1.9558m tall

Assuming he was standing tall, so his head is at it's highest, we know that it must fall 1.95m to get to the ground, and the acceleration is 9.81m/s²
s = v₁t + 1/2 at²
Thus we can rearrange to

t = sqrt(2s/a)

Plugging in the values

t = dqrt(2 * 1.95 / 9.81)

thus t = 0.6315 seconds.

It is thus impossible for all three shots to have hit Brown while he was falling, especially since the first would have had to have hit him halfway down, not standing perfectly upright.

Can we never hear this myth again now?

Is this the right mathematical model?

Suppose that Brown falls more like a pendulum with the pivot point being about where Brown's feet are? During the initial part of the fall the force of gravity is opposed by the force of his body pushing upwards. So I think his head would fall more slowly than a head that had no support.

 

[RandFan]

¹Can you explain why you think this statement from the Police chief (that went uncorrected) poses a huge problem ?

Also, AFAIK - this was the only time this statement was given. I'm open to being corrected.

²Suppose the police used that public statement to measure witness testimony.It's my understanding that police sometime "release" incorrect information in order to vet witness statements, and see who might change theirs.

AFAIK, the correct measurements were used in the investigation, and presented to the GJ, so what exactly is the problem ?

1. Could you quote where I said it was a "huge" problem?
2. I'll state up front that I'm not competent to rebut this claim. In hind sight it seems monumentally idiotic. Citizens of Ferguson already distrusted the police.
3. To be fair, at the beginning of any investigation there is what is termed as the "fog of war". I can think of many examples of honest mistakes made by law enforcement during and after a tragedy. The police are human. They make mistakes. This incident alone does not demonstrate bad faith. However, taken with all else it's troubling. It certainly plays into the narrative that the police were trying to shape public opinion.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

1. Could you quote where I said it was a "huge" problem?
2. I'll state up front that I'm not competent to rebut this claim. In hind sight it seems monumentally idiotic. Citizens of Ferguson already distrusted the police. How is the release of the robbery video and telling falsehoods working out?
3. To be fair, at the beginning of any investigation there is what is termed as the "fog of war". I can think of many examples of honest mistakes made by law enforcement during and after a tragedy. The police are human. They make mistakes. This incident alone does not demonstrate bad faith. However, taken with all else it's troubling. It certainly plays into the narrative that the police were trying to shape public opinion.

<>
I have problems with the official findings. Those problems are an honest and sincere expression of my feelings about this case. You might think my issues are misplaced. That's fine, but I've made my position quite clear. IMO: Your responses to me have not at all been an attempt to grant me the principle of charity but instead looking to semantics trying to find a "gotcha".

1. The initial report was that Brown was within 35' of the police vehicle. That is not true.
2. It has been said that Brown was charging Wilson while being struck on the inside of his arm/wrist.
3. It has been stated that it is unlikely that Brown was charging Wilson with his head parallel to the ground. Had Wilson been 3-5 feet of Wilson this would have made sense. I walked outside, paced off 35 feet, bent my body so it was parallel to the ground and attempted to charge. Now, you try it, how far did you get?

I would contend that these claims are not consistent with the evidence.​

​

1. You are correct , you didn't say huge. Is that a gotcha ? Is the issue really whether it's a huge problem or merely a problem at all ? You listed it as one of 3 examples, so ...

2. I don't know either, just a thought.

3. I really would like to know if it was claimed anywhere else, or it was simple a mis-statament by Belmar. Because the 'crime scene' of the 'shooting' was 35 feet. It's not hard to see why he might have mis-spoken.

 

[Wolrab]

Here is a article that explains everything.

The Daily Koz? No wonder.
Why did the author lie about this date:

Finally, on Wednesday Nov. 1,

November the first was a Saturday.

The initial reports was wrong and then the investigation was sealed for the sake of the investigation. Big deal.
I will look up the pictures from the Conservative Tree House in part one of this thread and see when and what they had.

 

[RandFan]

[/indent]

1. You are correct , you didn't say huge. Is that a gotcha ? Is the issue really whether it's a huge problem or merely a problem at all ? You listed it as one of 3 examples, so ...

2. I don't know either, just a thought.

3. I really would like to know if it was claimed anywhere else, or it was simple a mis-statament by Belmar. Because the 'crime scene' of the 'shooting' was 35 feet. It's not hard to see why he might have mis-spoken.

FWIW: My list of exmaples was not meant to be exhaustive. Just some of the things that have bothered me since I first learned of this incident.

I think I have been pretty clear explaining myself. The 35' claim bothers me when combined with everything else. At best this case was bungled from the start. Brown should not have been in the street all day. Where I live it is customary to cover a body with a clean sheet to protect the dignity of the deceased. In some jurisdictions police officers will erect a tarp. This can be done while preserving the crime scene. The release of the robbery video, something the public had a right to have and should have, was done very poorly. It seemed simply as a ploy to impeach Brown (which it rightly did). Given the bad relations between police and citizens I can only say that they, the police, did the best they could to bare their contempt for the citizens of Ferguson. Then there is the witness testimony. I don't think much of witness testimony anymore. I don't think it is conclusive. Clearly there are people who are motivated by bias on the side of Brown. Not all of them. I don't think a coherent picture arises from witness statements. The forensic evidence helps support some of the claims and gives us some direction but it's not definitive.

 

[Wolrab]

Here is a picture posted on 9/11:
https://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/canfield-map-new-2.jpg

Someone linked to this back then and of course all the naysayers were more concerned about the site than the information. It seems CTH was right and the Daily Koz was wrong. The koz author has this in his bio:

Family Man; Author; Activist; Techie; Entrepreneur; Teacher; Humanitarian; Fighter; Mountaineer; Organizer; Web Developer; Soccer Coach; Citizen of the World

http://www.dailykos.com/user/Shaun King
You may notice Journalist is absent. Reading his crap explains why.

 

[WildCat]

FWIW: My list of exmaples was not meant to be exhaustive. Just some of the things that have bothered me since I first learned of this incident.

I think I have been pretty clear explaining myself. The 35' claim bothers me when combined with everything else.

I really don't see how this incorrect public statement changes anything. t certainly didn't influence the GJ or theinvestigation, and anyone at the scene could see it was much more than 35' from the van.

At best this case was bungled from the start. Brown should not have been in the street all day. Where I live it is customary to cover a body with a clean sheet to protect the dignity of the deceased. In some jurisdictions police officers will erect a tarp.

I don't know how unusual that was. I drove right by this scene on my way to work shortly after 8am, over 4 hours after she was killed. The local lanes were shut down, everyone was put in the express lanes. The body was in plain view to the thousands of motorists driving by, slumped over in the driver's seat. Illinois State Police were still measuring the crime scene, taking pictures, and collecting evidence. I admit it was a very disturbing thing to see on the way to work, and I really wish I hadn't seen it. But it takes time to properly investigate such a scene.