Michael Brown shooting II

[Upchurch]

lazy I know but could you point to the specific ones that deal with innocents?

Points 5 and 7.

and yes if there is a % of wrongful convictions then racial bias will mean those biased against will have some fear of wrongful conviction but that never seems to be the thrust of the argument...it always seems to be about treating black criminals worse than white criminals, which while wrong is less upsetting.

The Wrongful Conviction as Way of Life

Of those exonerated by DNA, 70 percent were from minorities, and in nearly half of the rape cases involving blacks or Hispanics, the victims were white. (Garrett points out that “most sexual offenses, almost 90 percent, are committed by offenders of the same race as the victim.”)

But what does this actually mean? What might happen to their kids if they don't tell them the thing that white parents don't need to tell their children?

Then they, like white kids, would probably be more careless in their attitude around police, given a false sense of security that they are protected by their having not done anything wrong.

Oh I know it was far worse in times gone past - would you accept it has improved a lot and is still generally improving (but you want it to improve faster which is admirable)?

Yes, it is much improved, but it is not gone. Unfortunately, it has taken a series of violent upheavals for progress to be made.

 

[Ammonitida]

You are cherry-picking one paragraph. Here are some other bits.

​

And on and on and on.

Your statistics are without context. Drug arrests are often secondary crimes, and since blacks commit a disproportionate amount of violent crime in general, it follows that blacks would be busted for drug possession disproportionately. It's much easier for an old white man with no violent criminal record to get away with smoking dope in a quiet suburb than it is for a black crips member with a history of violent crime to get away with smoking crack in a ghetto. This has little to do with "systematic racism". Furthermore, blacks comprise 62% of drug-related homicides. This indicates that drug offenses among blacks are more often violent, and are thus more likely to come to the attention of local law enforcement, resulting in a disproportionately higher arrest rate for drugs.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf

 

[bobdroege7]

You are cherry-picking one paragraph.

And on and on and on.

What do you think would have happened to Brown, as he had no criminal record, for the alledged offenses at the convienience store?

Certainly he would not be going to prison, at most a fine, maybe nothing.

I think our criminal justice system gives a lot of slaps on the wrist to first, second and even third time offenders, and that those in prison certainly had plenty of chances to turn thier lives around.

 

[tyr_13]

Yeah, it's conformation bias on a massive scale. From the first hour of the Btrown Shooting you had people in this thread who had already decided on a scenario, and they refuse to budge from that.
Of course some of them might well know that Brown was not an "Gentle Giant"
but that does not matter. It gives them an excuse to agitate and promote their poltical agenda, and anything that will help "the revolution" is justified.

I'll note that it works the other way too. Some had already decided, before evidence, that he was a thug who caused his own death. They have flogged happening to be correct on the conclusion for their political agenda.

Coming to the correct conclusion through invalid reasoning is hardly to be lauded.

 

[William Parcher]

What do you think would have happened to Brown, as he had no criminal record, for the alledged offenses at the convienience store?

Certainly he would not be going to prison, at most a fine, maybe nothing.

I think our criminal justice system gives a lot of slaps on the wrist to first, second and even third time offenders, and that those in prison certainly had plenty of chances to turn thier lives around.

Well, it was a strong-arm robbery as opposed to shoplifting.

I don't know if Brown would avoid jail with that, or not. I don't recall if there were prior documented interactions with the police that might make it worse.

 

[Mudcat]

What do you think would have happened to Brown, as he had no criminal record, for the alledged offenses at the convienience store?

His crimes, even accounting for resisting arrest, would not have warranted capital punishment and, like you, I would be surprised if he would have served much jail time. If Brown had simply surrendered, instead of assaulting Wilson, he would likely be alive and a free man.

 

[William Parcher]

One could wonder what would have happened when the storekeeper confronted Brown on his way out with cigars-in-hand if Brown had simply given the cigars back instead of shoving the guy and walking out with them. There may not have been a call to the police or any damn given about the video recording and instead just a stern look from the shopkeeper and a comment like, "I'm going to remember you, and maybe you shouldn't come back to this store."

 

[Ammonitida]

Points 5 and 7.


The Wrongful Conviction as Way of Life

​

Then they, like white kids, would probably be more careless in their attitude around police, given a false sense of security that they are protected by their having not done anything wrong.


Yes, it is much improved, but it is not gone. Unfortunately, it has taken a series of violent upheavals for progress to be made.

Regarding this;

"Of those exonerated by DNA, 70 percent were from minorities, and in nearly half of the rape cases involving blacks or Hispanics, the victims were white. (Garrett points out that “most sexual offenses, almost 90 percent, are committed by offenders of the same race as the victim.”) "

First, this is subject to selection bias. It may be the case that crimes involving minority convicts who profess their innocence are more likely than similar white convicts to receive attention from the "Innocence project" based on the racial biases of certain members, especially cases in which the victim is a white female. I also dug deep into the background of several of these cases (exonerated minority defendants who were wrongly convicted of victimizing whites), and found that in all of them, the DNA implicated another minority suspect. The infamous central park jogger case is one example. Wrongly convicted black and Hispanic suspects freed by the DNA that implicated another minority suspect, murderer and rapist Mattias Reyes. So far, I've found no exception.

Moreover, that 70% are minorities is more or less consistent with the rate at which *non-Hispanic* whites are victims of rape and murder. Since minorities are disproportionately represented among those who are victims of stranger rape and murder, it follows that they would be the majority of those wrongly convicted.

 

[Cylinder]

For those questioning Wilson's decision to pursue Brown, he volunteered the information during his grand jury testimony:

[The questioner is Sheila Whirley -- one of the ADAs that presented this case to the grand jury]

Whirley: Is there something that we have not asked you that you want us to know or you think it is important for the jurors to consider regarding this incident?

Wilson: One thing you guys haven’t asked that has been asked of me in other interviews is, was he a threat, was Michael Brown a threat when he was running away. People asked why would you chase him if he was running away now.

I had already called for assistance. If someone arrives and sees him running, another officer and goes around the back half of the apartment complexes and tries to stop him, what would stop him from doing what he just did to me to him or worse, knowing he has already done it to one cop. And that was, he still posed a threat, not only to me, to anybody else that confronted him.​

 

[theprestige]

I can absolutely agree with that. The question is how to build that trust and respect after it has been all but not-existent for generations.

Is that the question you think sunmaster14 is trying to answer, with the proposal to prevent violence by increasing police presence? I wonder if you are stumbling into disagreement inadvertently.

 

[Upchurch]

Is that the question you think sunmaster14 is trying to answer, with the proposal to prevent violence by increasing police presence?

It's the question I was asking.

And after the last several months, I'd think it'd be fairly clear that increased police presence doesn't really prevent violence.

 

[Wolrab]

I love Johnson's testimony. He's out of work but, "on the verge of finding new work".

I also think both him and Brown were abducted by aliens because there is a crapload of missing time from 8:00-11:45.

Can't start the day without a blunt or 2.

All this could have been avoided if they didn't have to wake and bake.

 

[theprestige]

I'll note that it works the other way too. Some had already decided, before evidence, that he was a thug who caused his own death. They have flogged happening to be correct on the conclusion for their political agenda.

What political agenda would that be?

Coming to the correct conclusion through invalid reasoning is hardly to be lauded.

Can you give an example of this in action?

 

[Draca]

On CNN a black pundit said Michael Brown was shot because the officer did not want to be embarrassed by being beat up by a teenager.

In the Trayvon Martin case his friend Rachel Jeantel told Piers Morgan that she thought he did turn around to give the man following him a whoop ass.

It seems that others are suppose to read minds that this is simply to be a beating, fist fight or whoop ass and there is no legitimate reason to bring a gun into it.

 

[marplots]

Perhaps you should default to the idea that when we refer to then as animals, we're referring to the looters and criminals.

Sure. Except even that class can't be extracted with any fidelity. Is it a couple dozen people out of the whole? Is it fifty? How do the numbers compare with the population of the community overall?

The picture being painted is that the criminal acts of the rioters taint the outrage felt by the citizens who feel victimized by the police. If they can be labeled criminals or animals, we can then dismiss their concerns. It's a nice way to ignore the problem; it just isn't worthy of this forum.

 

[Giz]

And after the last several months, I'd think it'd be fairly clear that increased police presence doesn't really prevent violence.

Yeah, why did they even deploy officers during the riots?

(You crack me up)

 

[theprestige]

It's the question I was asking.

So it is. Carry on!

And after the last several months, I'd think it'd be fairly clear that increased police presence doesn't really prevent violence.

A job done badly isn't evidence that it can't be done well.

 

[Cylinder]

I'm not clear why we're supposed to avert our eyes here.

 

[theprestige]

I'm not clear why we're supposed to avert our eyes here.

I think it's okay to look on, as long as your vision is sharpened by Correct Thought.

 

[WildCat]

It's been quite a while since the Brown supporters have discussed the evidence in the case. Remember when that's all they wanted to discuss when all we knew was the testimony on Oprah?