Michael Brown shooting II

[Axiom_Blade]

We can really only speculate on what happened, but based on what's been released so far: the video,

Which video now? The convenience store video has nothing to do with this case, despite what many in this thread would like to think. He could've killed everybody in that store; it doesn't matter. Shooting an unarmed man is still murder. That's how the law works. Or, at least, how it's supposed to work.

the autopsy report that contradicts witness accounts that Brown was shot in the back,

What difference does it make whether or not he was shot in the back? We know for a fact that he was shot in the front, and that's what really matters.

the presence of at least one drug in Brown's system,

"At least one". I see what you did there. You didn't mention what the drug was, though. It's marijuana! Because you know how violent and bloodthirsty that makes people.

Officer Wilson's clean record...

I don't care how clean your record is if you shoot an unarmed citizen after they've clearly surrendered.

People have talked about that. But there's not much to talk about because of the limited publicly available facts with regard to that. The police announced he had a clean record, but the police had policies whereby complaints against an officer were routinely not stored with officer's record according to an article on HuffingtonPost.

Well, we do know that the last police force Wilson was on got shut down due to racial issues. As in, they shut it down, fired everybody and hired an entire new force.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

It sure is on its own, but it's independently confirmed by "Josie's" account, and she correctly anticipated the ballistics report before it was publicly released: no bullets to the back; the lethal blow came to the forehead.

I believe it was nitpicked earlier that it wasn't really the forehead, therefor everything she said is wrong.

I agree that knowing the last/lethal shot was to the forehead provides her credibility.

Nobody is saying it automatically means he's likely to charge an armed police officer. Instead it means he's more likely to attack a police officer than Joe Citizen.

Brown may have taunted or said something to Wilson, as "josies" story claims. I think Brown came towards wilson. Wilson felt threatened and fired 6 rounds. Brown stopped, maybe sort-of put his hands up, then stumbled or stepped forward toward Wilson and wilson fired off the last 4 rounds. The last 2 of which hit in the forehead/top of the head as he fell forward. And landed just a few feet away.

There is still room to argue that shooting wasn't necessary, but on a very different level than shooting him from behind, from 30 or 40 feet away, etc.

We still have plenty of missing facts that will be filled in. But until then, it's a plausible scenario to me that fits the witness statements we know, "josie", the random non-witness statements we overhear, and the audio recording.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Which video now? The convenience store video has nothing to do with this case, despite what many in this thread would like to think. He could've killed everybody in that store; it doesn't matter. Shooting an unarmed man is still murder. That's how the law works. Or, at least, how it's supposed to work.

Except when it's self defense. This case is not so black and white as you appear to want to make it.

What difference does it make whether or not he was shot in the back? We know for a fact that he was shot in the front, and that's what really matters.

It makes a difference because it's generally much more difficult to claim self defense when you shoot someone in the back as they are fleeing. Did you really not know that ?

"At least one". I see what you did there. You didn't mention what the drug was, though. It's marijuana! Because you know how violent and bloodthirsty that makes people.

Or because that was leaked and we don't have the results of the entire tox screen.

I don't care how clean your record is if you shoot an unarmed citizen after they've clearly surrendered.

And you're completely sure that's what happened here ?

Well, we do know that the last police force Wilson was on got shut down due to racial issues. As in, they shut it down, fired everybody and hired an entire new force.

"The convenience store video prior job at a different police department has nothing to do with this case, despite what many in this thread would like to think.

ETA: oh yea, they actually allowed the officers to apply for their jobs back, so saying they hired an entirely new force is also wrong.

 

[johnny karate]

It sure is on its own, but it's independently confirmed by "Josie's" account, and she correctly anticipated the ballistics report before it was publicly released: no bullets to the back; the lethal blow came to the forehead.

I believe there is a bullet graze to the arm that is inconclusive if it came from the back or the front. There is also a statement from law enforcement officials that indicate Wilson fired at Brown as he fled.

So I'm not sure how much stock I place in a transcript of garbled audio from a Youtube video and a thirdhand account from a friend of Wilson's girlfriend.

Nobody is saying it automatically means he's likely to charge an armed police officer. Instead it means he's more likely to attack a police officer than Joe Citizen.

But the specific moment we're talking about isn't just Brown simply attacking Wilson. It's Brown fleeing from Wilson, and then suddenly deciding to turn around and taunt him, and then rush Wilson as Wilson empties his gun at him.

That raises the stakes from from "big bully" and "petty thief" to "suicidal maniac". And I don't see anything in that convenience store video that would lead me to believe Brown was the type of person to escalate things to that degree.

 

[Fudbucker]

Wilson has not been on the force since 2010 - only 2011 according to an article. Prior to FPD, he was on the Jennings PD, which was disbanded (stories refer to them all being fired) due to issues. It was all covered in the prior thread.

I stand corrected: for three years, he's had a clean record.

 

[Fudbucker]

Which video now? The convenience store video has nothing to do with this case, despite what many in this thread would like to think. He could've killed everybody in that store; it doesn't matter. Shooting an unarmed man is still murder. That's how the law works. Or, at least, how it's supposed to work.

We're not talking about the law- we're talking probabilities. When the video was released, the probability that Brown was the type of person who would assault someone (e.g., a police officer) increased significantly.

What difference does it make whether or not he was shot in the back? We know for a fact that he was shot in the front, and that's what really matters.

A) It contradicts eyewitness testimony
B) It proves Wilson didn't shoot him as Brown ran away. That eliminates the scenario that Wilson shot Brown as Brown was fleeing.

There were basically three ways the shooting could have gone down- Brown was running away, Brown was standing still, or Brown was charging Wilson. Only one of those scenarios favored Wilson.

But now there are only two ways the shooting could have happened- Brown was just standing there, or Brown was charging Wilson.

Conclusion- the autopsy results made it more likely that this was a justified shooting.

"At least one". I see what you did there. You didn't mention what the drug was, though. It's marijuana! Because you know how violent and bloodthirsty that makes people.

Because we don't have a full toxicology report. And I've smoked plenty of weed. I've gotten paranoid as **** on sativas before.

I don't care how clean your record is if you shoot an unarmed citizen after they've clearly surrendered.

Again, we're talking speculation. If Wilson was the type of cop to shoot someone who's just standing there, it's not likely he would have a clean record. It's more likely there would be infractions.

Well, we do know that the last police force Wilson was on got shut down due to racial issues. As in, they shut it down, fired everybody and hired an entire new force.

Unless Wilson was implicated in any of that, it's irrelevant, and outweighed by his clean record since 2011.

 

[lionking]

I believe it was nitpicked earlier that it wasn't really the forehead, therefor everything she said is wrong.

I agree that knowing the last/lethal shot was to the forehead provides her credibility.


Brown may have taunted or said something to Wilson, as "josies" story claims. I think Brown came towards wilson. Wilson felt threatened and fired 6 rounds. Brown stopped, maybe sort-of put his hands up, then stumbled or stepped forward toward Wilson and wilson fired off the last 4 rounds. The last 2 of which hit in the forehead/top of the head as he fell forward. And landed just a few feet away.

There is still room to argue that shooting wasn't necessary, but on a very different level than shooting him from behind, from 30 or 40 feet away, etc.

We still have plenty of missing facts that will be filled in. But until then, it's a plausible scenario to me that fits the witness statements we know, "josie", the random non-witness statements we overhear, and the audio recording.

What? She wasn't there. It's not even an eyewitness report.

 

[lionking]

Conclusion- the autopsy results made it more likely that this was a justified shooting.

It does no such thing. Have you been following this case at all?

 

[Fudbucker]

It does no such thing. Have you been following this case at all?

"Mr. Brown, 18, was also shot four times in the right arm, he said, adding that all the bullets were fired into his front."

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html

Has there been some new information showing he was shot in the back, as Brown's friend claimed?

 

[casebro]

But a bunch of you are forgetting that back in the other thread somebody posted the Missouri law, and the jury instructions, regarding officer shootings. Shooting a fleeing known violent felon, even in the back, is justifiable. And Wilson, having just suffered an attack, knows the violent felon part to be true.

Executing him after surrender is not justifiable.

Brown giving up, arms in air, then moving towards Wilson, makes it self defense. With or without "Waddya gunna do, shoot me?". Hey, just moments before he tried to take the officer's gun. Stumble, fall or charge, any would justify the last four shots.

Now, which part of that do you feel is not been proven? And how likely is it that the DA does have proof and witnesses to that effect? I say fersure.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

What? She wasn't there. It's not even an eyewitness report.

No, nor did she claim to be. Is that all you've got ?

 

[casebro]

Maybe the "whaddya guna do, shoot me?" was in response to six shots, six misses? It gave the former lineman the courage to try a tackle?

 

[Cylinder]

Which video now? The convenience store video has nothing to do with this case, despite what many in this thread would like to think. He could've killed everybody in that store; it doesn't matter. Shooting an unarmed man is still murder. That's how the law works. Or, at least, how it's supposed to work.

We dealt with this meme many times over the course of the OT, but I think it's worth restating here:

1. The robbery video is not dispositive concerning the shooting. It does not prove that Wilson's use of force was justified.

2. The robbery video rebuts the gentle giant portrayal of Brown and the argument that Brown would be incapable of aggression in normal situations.

3. The robbery video provides motives that could help explain why a contact with police would escalate in that Brown reasonably should have been aware that he was facing some jail time.

4.The robbery video seems to be consistent with some of the behaviors attributed to Wilson's narrative in that he had, just minutes earlier, used kind of strong-arm tactics to achieve a criminal motive.
​

To expand on these earlier comments, I suggest we will find that the robbery itself will have legal relevance in that the second contact with Brown will reference the strong-arm BOLO rather than a follow-up on the contact referencing jaywalking.

 

[Elagabalus]

"Mr. Brown, 18, was also shot four times in the right arm, he said, adding that all the bullets were fired into his front."

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html

Has there been some new information showing he was shot in the back, as Brown's friend claimed?

Please go back and re-read the first Michael Brown thread. Start here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281607&page=110

There will be be a quiz later.

Don't forget to look at Casebro's rightwing whackjob website. Good annotated pics of the crime scene (Try not to read comment section). Brown is a lot further away from Wilson's SUV than 35 feet. Also shown are what appears to be the last 3 shell casings. They are very close to Brown.

 

[casebro]

There was 2-3 pieces of brass at the car. The last four shots could not have made 6 entry wounds. And none were in the back. So at least two hits were from the first volley, facing Wilson, can we assume near the SUV?

And/ or, one shot inside the car, more out the window, hits Brown twice in the arm. Brown evades by running around the car that the cop parked diagonally in the street, Wilson has to get out and run around the rear corner of the suv, then the 6+4 that are on the tape, while pursuing Brown. Gets close, Brown stops, turns, moves towards the cop. Total of 13-14, just what one mag holds on a non-California Glock.

Or maybe one inside, not heard on the tape because of the 300 pound cork blocking the window. Six out the window, hitting Brown in the arm with some. Brown evades around the car, running up the yellow line. (the fool should have run for cover) Wilson pursues, Brown stops, say "whaddya, gunna shoot me?" Stops. turns, and either falls, charges, or trips towards Wilson. Justifiable self defense at that point.

 

[casebro]

Six shots out the window, 4 hit Brown in the arm. they start a footrace, Brown can not win, so give up 35 feet later. Turns and charges/falls. Four more, only two hits. both to the head.

Removed breach. Please, cut out the personalization, remember your Membership Agreement, and be civil to other members.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL

 

[Cain]

I believe there is a bullet graze to the arm that is inconclusive if it came from the back or the front. There is also a statement from law enforcement officials that indicate Wilson fired at Brown as he fled.

As mentioned before, there's a cluster of bullets on Brown's right side. When Brown runs, his right is also Wilson's. When Brown turns around, his right side is Wilson's left.

So I'm not sure how much stock I place in a transcript of garbled audio from a Youtube video and a thirdhand account from a friend of Wilson's girlfriend.

This is not an information-rich case, so everyone is speculating. I'm not betting the ranch on it.

But the specific moment we're talking about isn't just Brown simply attacking Wilson. It's Brown fleeing from Wilson, and then suddenly deciding to turn around and taunt him, and then rush Wilson as Wilson empties his gun at him.

That raises the stakes from from "big bully" and "petty thief" to "suicidal maniac". And I don't see anything in that convenience store video that would lead me to believe Brown was the type of person to escalate things to that degree.

I thought Brown's robbery exhibited the criminal symptoms of impulsivity and stupidity. Why risk a record for some cheap cigars? Why assault a man with a gun? Why assault a man who has a gun pointed at you? Some people behave in a suicidal way when cops draw arms.

 

[Fudbucker]

Please go back and re-read the first Michael Brown thread. Start here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281607&page=110

There will be be a quiz later.

Don't forget to look at Casebro's rightwing whackjob website. Good annotated pics of the crime scene (Try not to read comment section). Brown is a lot further away from Wilson's SUV than 35 feet. Also shown are what appears to be the last 3 shell casings. They are very close to Brown.

Why would I need to read the thread (which I've already read)? This is essentially the information that we have:
- Brown was shot from the front (which contradicts eyewitness testimony)
- Brown had just robbed a store
- Wilson has a clean record
- Brown had at least one drug in his system.

And I'm betting we're going to see pictures of Wilson's face in the not-to-distant future, and he's going to look like he got punched pretty hard.

 

[Fudbucker]

As mentioned before, there's a cluster of bullets on Brown's right side. When Brown runs, his right is also Wilson's. When Brown turns around, his right side is Wilson's left.



This is not an information-rich case, so everyone is speculating. I'm not betting the ranch on it.



I thought Brown's robbery exhibited the criminal symptoms of impulsivity and stupidity. Why risk a record for some cheap cigars? Why assault a man with a gun? Why assault a man who has a gun pointed at you? Some people behave in a suicidal way when cops draw arms.

This.

Also: are Brown's juvenile records now unsealed?

 

[Cain]

4) The newly found audio of the shooting calls Wilson's version of events into question. Wilson claims Brown stopped, turned, taunted him by saying "you're not gonna shoot me!", and then began to charge him which makes zero sense considering that Brown had already been shot twice by this time.

When you say "Wilson's version" do you mean Josie's version? And it's been stated before that the taunt must not necessarily come between the 6 and 4 clusters of shots. A shot or shots could have been fired at a fleeing Brown earlier, and Wilson either deliberately missed or knew he missed, then Brown turns around, taunts, and goes for Wilson.

If Brown had turned around to surrender, are the four bullets you're suggesting Wilson fired consistent with the victim having his hands up in the air (as reported by witnesses)? Because a shot to the bicep sounds inconsistent with hands raised...