Michael Brown shooting II

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johnny karate said:
Is there a witness who contradicts this account?
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The St. Louis Post-Dispatch found a witness who contradicts that account and he has spoken to the grand jury.

Among the recollections of the witness, who agreed to an interview on the condition that his name not be used, were:

• After an initial scuffle in the car, the officer did not fire until Brown turned back toward him.

• Brown put his arms out to his sides but never raised his hands high.

• Brown staggered toward Wilson despite commands to stop.

• The two were about 20 to 25 feet apart when the last shots were fired.

He would not detail what he had told the grand jury but said the members seemed fair and asked a lot of questions.
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http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_ab6e1e03-c49a-5c7f-8786-b0e88ec79349.html
 
Sounds good for Wilson. New info:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/18/us/ferguson-case-officer-is-said-to-cite-struggle.html?_r=0
WASHINGTON — The police officer who fatally shot Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo., two months ago has told investigators that he was pinned in his vehicle and in fear for his life as he struggled over his gun with Mr. Brown, according to government officials briefed on the federal civil rights investigation into the matter.

The officer, Darren Wilson, has told the authorities that during the scuffle, Mr. Brown reached for the gun. It was fired twice in the car, according to forensics tests performed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. The first bullet struck Mr. Brown in the arm; the second bullet missed.

The forensics tests showed Mr. Brown’s blood on the gun, as well as on the interior door panel and on Officer Wilson’s uniform. Officer Wilson told the authorities that Mr. Brown had punched and scratched him repeatedly, leaving swelling on his face and cuts on his neck.
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In September, Officer Wilson appeared for four hours before a St. Louis County grand jury, which was convened to determine whether there is probable cause that he committed a crime. Legal experts have said that his decision to testify was surprising, given that it was not required by law. But the struggle in the car may prove to be a more influential piece of information for the grand jury, one that speaks to Officer Wilson’s state of mind, his feeling of vulnerability and his sense of heightened alert when he killed Mr. Brown.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/18/us/ferguson-case-officer-is-said-to-cite-struggle.html

The officer, Darren Wilson, has told the authorities that during the scuffle, Mr. Brown reached for the gun. It was fired twice in the car, according to forensics tests performed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. The first bullet struck Mr. Brown in the arm; the second bullet missed.

The forensics tests showed Mr. Brown’s blood on the gun, as well as on the interior door panel and on Officer Wilson’s uniform. Officer Wilson told the authorities that Mr. Brown had punched and scratched him repeatedly, leaving swelling on his face and cuts on his neck.
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This is the first public account of Officer Wilson’s testimony to investigators, but it does not explain why, after he emerged from his vehicle, he fired at Mr. Brown multiple times.
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Well the explanations are coming, so let's wait and see.
 
So we've got Wilson with a swollen face and scratch marks, Brown's blood in the car and on the gun, Brown getting shot in the car, and a grand jury witness with a much different account than other witnesses.

Toss in the video of Brown robbing the convenience store, Wilson's lack of a discipline record...this thing is never going to trial.
 
Bogative said:
The St. Louis Post-Dispatch found a witness who contradicts that account and he has spoken to the grand jury.
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That certainly does put things in a slightly different light, if true. However, this witness still puts Brown a significant distance away from Wilson when he was shot and killed, and again, no "charging".

I am curious to see what other witnesses say, and how it all lines up with what we've heard so far.

Also, it's a lot of fun to read all the breathlessly excited posts about this one witness after so many posts completely dismissing every other witness with scathing indictments of the reliability of eye witness testimony.
 
johnny karate said:
That certainly does put things in a slightly different light, if true. However, this witness still puts Brown a significant distance away from Wilson when he was shot and killed, and again, no "charging".
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20-25 feet is not very far. Once again, I am fat and out of shape and could cover that in a few running strides.
 
johnny karate said:
That certainly does put things in a slightly different light, if true. However, this witness still puts Brown a significant distance away from Wilson when he was shot and killed, and again, no "charging".
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

johnny karate said:
I am curious to see what other witnesses say, and how it all lines up with what we've heard so far.
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Indeed.

johnny karate said:
Also, it's a lot of fun to read all the breathlessly excited posts about this one witness after so many posts completely dismissing every other witness with scathing indictments of the reliability of eye witness testimony.
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Wow. That's a lot of hyperbole. :rolleyes:

Aside from one poster, I simply see people citing the story about the witness who corroborates what we have been told about Wilsons story.And the forensic evidence.
 
This thread got really quiet.

johnny karate said:
That certainly does put things in a slightly different light, if true. However, this witness still puts Brown a significant distance away from Wilson when he was shot and killed, and again, no "charging".

I am curious to see what other witnesses say, and how it all lines up with what we've heard so far.

Also, it's a lot of fun to read all the breathlessly excited posts about this one witness after so many posts completely dismissing every other witness with scathing indictments of the reliability of eye witness testimony.
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According to forensics, Brown was initially shot "inside" the car, as his blood was found inside it, on the gun itself, and even on the officers clothing.

Brown attacked the cop inside his car and was shot in the process. The final shots were the end of the confrontation, not the beginning. Brown played his card when he attacked a cop. How stupid can a person be? What the hell should Brown have expected as an end result? He attacked a cop in his own car!

Edited by Gaspode: 
Edited for moderated thread.
 
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TheL8Elvis said:
Aside from one poster, I simply see people citing the story about the witness who corroborates what we have been told about Wilsons story.And the forensic evidence.
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What have we been told about Wilson's story? Cite, please.

There's forensic evidence to corroborate this witness's claim that Brown's hands weren't in the air? Cite, please.

I have no idea if this witness offered accurate testimony, and neither do you. All any of us can do is piece together all of the evidence to best determine a narrative of events.

And up until this eye witness testimony was made known, it was asserted over and over again how unreliable eye witness testimony is. I'm happy to offer cites, if you like.

So just out of curiosity, what makes this eye witness testimony more reliable than any of the others? I'm just trying to get a handle on the standards of evidence the skeptics in this thread are applying, because it seems to vary depending on how much they like the evidence.
 
So despite this new eyewitness being exactly that, an eyewitness. The newly released forensic evidence doesn't really do much either way, in my opinion, as it's being implied. Some have said Wilson pulled Brown into the car by his neck, or upper body. If that were the case he still could have shot him without it being justified. The blood on his shirt, in the car, and on the gun would just be the aftermath of that shot.

Is there something I'm missing here? I agree with the stance that just because there's a new eyewitness that all of a sudden eyewitness testimony is rock solid. I am still very confused as to how the recording matches up with this new forensic evidence and testimony.
 
mgidm86 said:
This thread got really quiet.


According to forensics, Brown was initially shot "inside" the car, as his blood was found inside it, on the gun itself, and even on the officers clothing.

Brown attacked the cop inside his car and was shot in the process. The final shots were the end of the confrontation, not the beginning. Brown played his card when he attacked a cop. How stupid can a person be? What the hell should Brown have expected as an end result? He attacked a cop in his own car!

Edited by Gaspode: 
Edited for moderated thread.
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The forensics had two shots fired inside the car with one hitting Brown and one missing him (which lends credence to there being some sort of struggle over the weapon because you're not going to miss at point blank range without some sort of outside interference). In other words it appears that Brown was trying to grab Wilson weapon. That's not an act of a rational person which has to come into play as to what happens next.

At that point, in my opinion, all bets are off and it really comes down to officer judgement as to what happens next. If Brown is within 20-30 feet and facing Wilson while advancing towards him, not even charging but simply walking towards him and closing distance to within "Charging" range, (using as an example a standard procedure for a felony car stop is to never let the person being arrested face the officer until they are cuffed just because of this possibility) Wilson may very well be justified in shooting at Brown simply because Brown had already shown by his own actions that he was willing to attack Wilson and take his weapon if given the chance. I don't find it unreasonable to want to not get killed by your own gun.
 
Reports are saying that there were two shots in the car. At least one of them hit Brown's arm and blood splattered onto several things.

Wilson says that Brown pinned him inside the car (by preventing the door from opening) and grabbed for his gun while also punching and scratching his face.

Then Brown broke away and retreated. Wilson had to go after him after that encounter.
 
mgidm86 said:
According to forensics, Brown was initially shot "inside" the car, as his blood was found inside it, on the gun itself, and even on the officers clothing.

Brown attacked the cop inside his car and was shot in the process. The final shots were the end of the confrontation, not the beginning. Brown played his card when he attacked a cop. How stupid can a person be? What the hell should Brown have expected as an end result? He attacked a cop in his own car!
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You started off good, but then got lost a bit towards the end. Forensic evidence shows he was shot inside the car, but it does not determine whether he initiated the attack or was acting in self defense or what prompted his being partially inside the car. Further, it matters what happened after they disengaged from the confrontation in the car.

Life isn't D&D and this wasn't an encounter that only concludes once one side or the other is defeated. Any threat Wilson might have felt inside the car does not necessarily carry over once the immediate threat has been removed.

Again, I think there is a bigger issue that is being overlooked in all the finger pointing. Namely, systemic racism in the justice and law enforcement systems and distrust of the police among the black community.
 
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