Michael Brown shooting II

[johnny karate]

Speaking on TV is NOT giving evidence.

Giving a sworn statement to officials IS.

Now, tell me which of those who had face time on TV actually gave sworn statements?

The issue isn't whether or not these witnesses have given a sworn statement (do you have reason to believe that they haven't?) but whether or not we can believe what they say.

Since your query starts with the premise of disbelieving them, please provide justification for denying what multiple independent eye witnesses claim to have seen.

Again, I have to wonder if these witnesses all claimed to have seen the incident in a manner that completely exonerated Wilson, if the same people would be trying so hard to discredit them.

 

[Mumbles]

The issue isn't whether or not these witnesses have given a sworn statement (do you have reason to believe that they haven't?) but whether or not we can believe what they say.

Since your query starts with the premise of disbelieving them, please provide justification for denying what multiple independent eye witnesses claim to have seen.

Again, I have to wonder if these witnesses all claimed to have seen the incident in a manner that completely exonerated Wilson, if the same people would be trying so hard to discredit them.

It's particularly interesting, considering that two of them were recorded saying so immediately after the shooting, and are unrelated to anyone in the community.

 

[casebro]

People lie often enough under penalty of perjury, where is your skepticism of people on TV?

Or do you believe Trudeau's infommercials too? And Smiling Bob has enhancement pills too. And he says they really work. Honest.

 

[Mike!]

The issue isn't whether or not these witnesses have given a sworn statement (do you have reason to believe that they haven't?) but whether or not we can believe what they say.

Since your query starts with the premise of disbelieving them, please provide justification for denying what multiple independent eye witnesses claim to have seen.

Again, I have to wonder if these witnesses all claimed to have seen the incident in a manner that completely exonerated Wilson, if the same people would be trying so hard to discredit them.

If that was the case, it's likely we'd never be having this discussion in the first place.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

The issue isn't whether or not these witnesses have given a sworn statement (do you have reason to believe that they haven't?) but whether or not we can believe what they say.

Since your query starts with the premise of disbelieving them, please provide justification for denying what multiple independent eye witnesses claim to have seen.

Again, I have to wonder if these witnesses all claimed to have seen the incident in a manner that completely exonerated Wilson, if the same people would be trying so hard to discredit them.

Why would there be a need to?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

... it's a very strong probability that Michael Brown had his hands in the air when he was shot to death.

Do you deny this? Or do you think all these witnesses are lying?

He very well may have had his hands in the air. Although it's not as if all the witnesses who have given media statements have clearly agreed this was the case.

Do I think they are all lying ? No. Do I think some of them are lying ? Absolutely. Dorian Johnson is a liar and has no credibility.

Do I think some of them may be mistaken about what they saw ? Absolutely.
Do you think one of the workers really saw 3 officers open fire on brown, or was he mistaken about what he saw ?

Could it be that they were discussing what they think they saw, and that colored their memories and perceptions of what they think they saw ? Sure, that's very plausible isn't it ?

Knowing how poor eyewitness testimony can be, and knowing how incorrect some of these witnesses are in their descriptions of events, I'm skeptical of their stories, and waiting further evidence.

.
Both are still pending... so... yeah...

Well, if it were truly as clear and simple as you keep trying to make it out to be, he would have already been charged. The GJ would have already indicted.

Clearly it's more complicated than "hands in the air, therefor charge wilson"

 

[plague311]

The issue isn't whether or not these witnesses have given a sworn statement (do you have reason to believe that they haven't?) but whether or not we can believe what they say.

I haven't seen any evidence showing specifically that they have given sworn statements. That being said, it would be a logical conclusion that if they acquired lawyers it was because they were talking to the police, and if they were talking to the police more than likely they were giving a statement.

Since your query starts with the premise of disbelieving them, please provide justification for denying what multiple independent eye witnesses claim to have seen.

Are they really independent though? Independent to me would lead me to think that they hadn't discussed the events with each other, and that there was no exchange of information before giving the aforementioned sworn statements. From what I understand the witnesses were speaking with each other for some time. Even in the video with the contractors you hear random people screaming that he had his hands up. Are we sure this isn't some form of mob mentality? A few people claim he had his hands up, then multiple other people latch on to it. The mind can be a tricky thing.

Again, that being said, the evidence we have available looks fairly damning for Officer Wilson in the court of public opinion. I am somewhere in the middle with the whole thing. I am not willing to buy that Michael Brown was an innocent boy that had no hand in provoking this; however, I also think that once Wilson fired he made up his mind. Nothing that was done from that point on was going to change anything. Which is kind of scary.

Again, I have to wonder if these witnesses all claimed to have seen the incident in a manner that completely exonerated Wilson, if the same people would be trying so hard to discredit them.

I think this is little more than a cheap shot. The road goes both ways, and if they were on Wilson's side, you'd be nay saying them as well. I mean, let's get down to brass tacks here, both sides have been doing what they can to discredit the other side. Logically, that's what debating is, and this is a skeptics forum after all.

We are still missing the majority of the evidence in regards to this case. I have no doubts that there is so much data that we just don't have. It'll be interesting to see how everything changes when all the information is available to the public.

 

[johnny karate]

People lie often enough under penalty of perjury, where is your skepticism of people on TV?

Or do you believe Trudeau's infommercials too? And Smiling Bob has enhancement pills too. And he says they really work. Honest.

I'm not sure I'm following your logic here.

Is everyone on television inherently untrustworthy by virtue of the fact that they are on television?

Before answering, keep in mind that people supportive of Officer Wilson have also made claims that appeared on television.

 

[johnny karate]

Why would there be a need to?

Intellectual honesty?

 

[johnny karate]

He very well may have had his hands in the air. Although it's not as if all the witnesses who have given media statements have clearly agreed this was the case.

Is there a witness who contradicts this account?

Do I think they are all lying ? No. Do I think some of them are lying ? Absolutely. Dorian Johnson is a liar and has no credibility.

I don't disagree. Luckily, we have several other witness reports against which to confirm his claims.

Do I think some of them may be mistaken about what they saw ? Absolutely. Do you think one of the workers really saw 3 officers open fire on brown, or was he mistaken about what he saw ?

Some witnesses may be incorrect or mistaken regarding certain details. But just because someone gets one detail wrong doesn't mean they're wrong about everything. Again, that is the benefit of having multiple, separate accounts. You can cross-reference them and see which details are consistent.

Could it be that they were discussing what they think they saw, and that colored their memories and perceptions of what they think they saw ? Sure, that's very plausible isn't it ?

It gets less plausible the more people you include. Eventually, if enough people say they saw something, one has to consider the possibility that what they claim to have seen actually happened.

Or scouring the Facebook accounts of these people to find something that allows an out-of-hand dismissal of their claims is another way to go, I suppose.

Knowing how poor eyewitness testimony can be, and knowing how incorrect some of these witnesses are in their descriptions of events, I'm skeptical of their stories, and waiting further evidence.

Just so we're clear: Do you dismiss eye witness testimony in all instances across the board? Or is this a special case for some reason?

Well, if it were truly as clear and simple as you keep trying to make it out to be, he would have already been charged. The GJ would have already indicted.

Clearly it's more complicated than "hands in the air, therefor charge wilson"

Okay... but I don't recall making that argument.

As far as what the grand jury does or does not determine, I think I'll wait and see how this misconduct investigation turns out before I place much faith in them.

 

[casebro]

Is there a witness who contradicts this account?

Not that has had his face on TV.

We don't know what the official investigation has as sworn statements to show the Grand Jury.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Is there a witness who contradicts this account?

Not directly, afaik.

I don't disagree. Luckily, we have several other witness reports against which to confirm his claims.

Some witnesses may be incorrect or mistaken regarding certain details. But just because someone gets one detail wrong doesn't mean they're wrong about everything. Again, that is the benefit of having multiple, separate accounts. You can cross-reference them and see which details are consistent.

It gets less plausible the more people you include. Eventually, if enough people say they saw something, one has to consider the possibility that what they claim to have seen actually happened.

Agreed. Based on the witness media statements, Brown had his hands in the air, but kept walking toward Wilson. And moved to within a few feet of him. Plausible ?

Or scouring the Facebook accounts of these people to find something that allows an out-of-hand dismissal of their claims is another way to go, I suppose.

By scouring, you mean reading the posts people make intending for them to be read by everyone ?

Crenshaws own actions lessen her credibility and reveal her bias. I haven't dismissed her claims, I'm just putting them in context. She's not a disinterested third party. She knows Brown, and has a clear dislike for the police.

Do you that three witnesses confabulating prior to talking to the police makes their statements more credible or less credible ?

Just so we're clear: Do you dismiss eye witness testimony in all instances across the board? Or is this a special case for some reason?

That I'm skeptical of their stories, and waiting further evidence does not equal dismissal. So there's that...

Okay... but I don't recall making that argument.

Then what other conclusion should we all draw from the harping on the fact that browns hands were in the air, other than that made what wilson did illegal ?

You (and others) appear to find it to be an important piece of information - that Browns hands were in the air.

Please elucidate on the implications you think we should draw from that.

As far as what the grand jury does or does not determine, I think I'll wait and see how this misconduct investigation turns out before I place much faith in them.

My guess is you have already seen the result of the investigation ... nothing.

If it turns out to be nothing, then will you have full faith in their decision, what ever that may be ?

If it turns out one GJ discussed the case with someone, how exaction will it affect your fairth of the other 11 members ?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

It gets less plausible the more people you include. Eventually, if enough people say they saw something, one has to consider the possibility that what they claim to have seen actually happened.

....

Really?

So, the more people who claim they saw an alien spacecraft, or whatever: the more likely it is to be an accurate story of what happened?

 

[marplots]

Really?

So, the more people who claim they saw an alien spacecraft, or whatever: the more likely it is to be an accurate story of what happened?

Sure. Why wouldn't this be so?

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/witness-adds-new-perspective-to-ferguson-shooting/article_ab6e1e03-c49a-5c7f-8786-b0e88ec79349.html

One Canfield resident — who said he saw the killing of Brown from start to finish and talked to the grand jury recently — has given the Post-Dispatch an account with some key differences from previous public statements from other witnesses.

Among the recollections of the witness, who agreed to an interview on the condition that his name not be used, were:

After an initial scuffle in the car, the officer did not fire until Brown turned back toward him.

Brown put his arms out to his sides but never raised his hands high.

Brown staggered toward Wilson despite commands to stop.

No.

No. No. No. No. LIES!!!!

This cannot be. We were assured that St. Michael had his hands up and his back turned. All the witnesses who booked themselves on Oprah told us so.

I bet this guy is some sort of racist. How dare he go off script like this?

 

[LTC8K6]

Witnesses starting to reveal their GJ testimony.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_ab6e1e03-c49a-5c7f-8786-b0e88ec79349.html

WITNESS SAW ENCOUNTER FROM START TO FINISH

In the latest account of the Brown killing, the witness said he saw Wilson’s police SUV stop near Brown and Johnson as they were walking in the middle of Canfield Drive. He said he heard Wilson say something to them, but not what. He said Wilson drove past them, then backed up.

The witness said he had been on the right side of the police SUV and did not have a clear view of what happened on the opposite, driver’s side. “There was a tussle going on,” he said, adding that he believes he saw Wilson’s hat fly off.

He then heard a shot and saw Brown run, followed by Wilson. He said Wilson aimed his handgun at Brown and yelled: “Stop! Stop! Stop!”

The witness said Brown did stop, mumbled something he could not clearly hear and took a step toward Wilson.

“When he stepped foot on that street, the officer told him to stop again, and he fired three shots,” the witness recalled. “When he (Brown) got hit, he staggered like, ‘Oh,’ and his body moved. Then he looked down.

“His hands were up like this (he gestures with arms out to the side and palms upward), and he was looking at the officer and was coming toward him trying to keep his feet and stand up. The officer took a few steps back and yelled, ‘Stop,’ again, and Michael was trying to stay on his feet.

“He was 20 to 25 feet from officer, and after he started staggering, he (Wilson) let off four more rounds. As he was firing those last rounds, Michael was on his way down. We were thinking, ‘Oh my God, oh my God, brother, stop, stop.’ He was already on his way down when he fired those last shots.”

The witness said Wilson didn’t have to kill Brown. “It went from zero to 100 like that, in the blink of an eye. ... What transpired to us, in my eyesight, was murder. Down outright murder.”

 

[William Parcher]

Witness says officer did not shoot Michael Brown until he turned toward him

A stream of eyewitnesses has been testifying in secret before a grand jury considering whether to indict police officer Darren Wilson in the fatal shooting of Michael Brown near the Canfield Green apartments in Ferguson..

One Canfield resident who said he saw the killing of Brown from start to finish and talked to the grand jury recently has given The St. Louis Post-Dispatch an account with some key differences from previous public statements from other witnesses.

Among the recollections of the witness, who agreed to an interview on the condition that his name not be used, were:

* After an initial scuffle in the car, the officer did not fire until Brown turned back toward him.

* Brown put his arms out to his sides but never raised his hands high.

* Brown staggered toward Wilson despite commands to stop.

* The two were about 20 to 25 feet apart when the last shots were fired.

He would not detail what he had told the grand jury but said the members seemed fair and asked a lot of questions...

Some have said Brown raised his arms high in surrender, giving rise to a common protesters' chant of "Hands up, don't shoot" while mimicking the move. But this witness said Brown never put his hands straight up, but held his elbows straight out from his torso, with palms turned up in a sort of gesture of disbelief...

This latest witness, who is black, told the Post-Dispatch that (Dorian) Johnson took off running toward West Florissant Avenue after the first shot went off inside Wilson's police SUV.

In the latest account of the Brown killing, the witness said he saw Wilson's police SUV stop near Brown and Johnson as they were walking in the middle of Canfield Drive. He said he heard Wilson say something to them, but not what. He said Wilson drove past them, then backed up.

The witness said he had been on the right side of the police SUV and did not have a clear view of what happened on the opposite, driver's side. "There was a tussle going on," he said, adding that he believes he saw Wilson's hat fly off.

He then heard a shot and saw Brown run, followed by Wilson. He said Wilson aimed his handgun at Brown and yelled: "Stop! Stop! Stop!"

The witness said Brown did stop, mumbled something he could not clearly hear and took a step toward Wilson.

"When he stepped foot on that street, the officer told him to stop again, and he fired three shots," the witness recalled. "When he (Brown) got hit, he staggered like, 'Oh,' and his body moved. Then he looked down.

"His hands were up like this (he gestures with arms out to the side and palms upward), and he was looking at the officer and was coming toward him trying to keep his feet and stand up. The officer took a few steps back and yelled, 'Stop,' again, and Michael was trying to stay on his feet.

"He was 20 to 25 feet from officer, and after he started staggering, he (Wilson) let off four more rounds. As he was firing those last rounds, Michael was on his way down. We were thinking, 'Oh my God, oh my God, brother, stop, stop.' He was already on his way down when he fired those last shots."

The witness said Wilson didn't have to kill Brown. "It went from zero to 100 like that, in the blink of an eye. ... What transpired to us, in my eyesight, was murder. Down outright murder."...

 

[TheL8Elvis]

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_ab6e1e03-c49a-5c7f-8786-b0e88ec79349.html

One Canfield resident — who said he saw the killing of Brown from start to finish and talked to the grand jury recently — has given the Post-Dispatch an account with some key differences from previous public statements from other witnesses.

Among the recollections of the witness, who agreed to an interview on the condition that his name not be used, were:

• After an initial scuffle in the car, the officer did not fire until Brown turned back toward him.
• Brown put his arms out to his sides but never raised his hands high.• Brown staggered toward Wilson despite commands to stop.• The two were about 20 to 25 feet apart when the last shots were fired.
• He would not detail what he had told the grand jury but said the members seemed fair and asked a lot of questions.

And here is that witnesses POV on the incident:

The witness said Wilson didn’t have to kill Brown. “It went from zero to 100 like that, in the blink of an eye. ... What transpired to us, in my eyesight, was murder. Down outright murder.”

 

[Cylinder]

Another witness has come forward[/quote] after testifying in front of the grand jury. Obviously, the anonymous witness was prevented by statute from commenting on the specifics of their testimony, but related what they saw during the shooting.

- Wilson stopped his SUV near Brown and Johnson who were walking in the middle of Canfield. Wilson said something to the pair, but the witness could not make out what was said.

- After the exchange, Wilson drove past them, then backed up to their location for the second encounter.

- The witness was positioned to right of Wilson's patrol vehicle and could not see the sequence of events that led up to what he described as a "tussle" in or near the car. The witness believes they saw Brown's hat fly off.

- The witness heard a shot and saw Brown run from the vehicle, followed by Wilson.

- Wilson had his service weapon drawn and shouted "Stop, stop, stop!

- Brown stopped, mumbled something inaudible to the witness, and took a step toward Wilson.

- Wilson again ordered Brown to stop and then fired three shots as Brown stepped back onto the street.

“When he stepped foot on that street, the officer told him to stop again, and he fired three shots,” the witness recalled. “When he (Brown) got hit, he staggered like, ‘Oh,’ and his body moved. Then he looked down.

“His hands were up like this (he gestures with arms out to the side and palms upward), and he was looking at the officer and was coming toward him trying to keep his feet and stand up. The officer took a few steps back and yelled, ‘Stop,’ again, and Michael was trying to stay on his feet.

“He was 20 to 25 feet from officer, and after he started staggering, he (Wilson) let off four more rounds. As he was firing those last rounds, Michael was on his way down. We were thinking, ‘Oh my God, oh my God, brother, stop, stop.’ He was already on his way down when he fired those last shots.”

The witness said Wilson didn’t have to kill Brown. “It went from zero to 100 like that, in the blink of an eye. ... What transpired to us, in my eyesight, was murder. Down outright murder.”

The Post-Dispatch reported the witness as claiming that Wilson did not fire at Brown while he was fleeing and waited to shoot until Brown turned and began approaching Wilson. The witness said that the grand jury seemed fair-minded and attentive -- asking a great deal of questions directly during their testimony.

 

[johnny karate]

Really?

So, the more people who claim they saw an alien spacecraft, or whatever: the more likely it is to be an accurate story of what happened?

How would they know it was an alien spacecraft?

I think what you meant to say was UFO, as in Unidentified Flying Object.

And the answer is yes. If enough independent witnesses claim to have seen a UFO, I would believe they saw a UFO. What reason would I have not to?