Mexico's Outrage . . .

[Spindrift]

“I think your military is scared. Our military isn’t, so I just might send them down to take care of it.”

If Trump thinks the Mexican military is 'scared' maybe he thinks an invasion will be an easy and quick 'victory' to enhance his prestige as Commander in Chief.
After all he says he knows more than the generals.

I wonder how many American tourists and ex-pats are in Mexico at any one time?

If President Bannon orders an invasion what will happen to them?

 

[xjx388]

Yeah, I haven't been to Cancun in awhile, but this didn't ring true.
http://www.lasplazasoutletcancun.mx/content/tiendas/
http://www.laislacancun.mx/content/tiendas
http://www.kukulcanplaza.mx/nosotros.html
http://luxuryavenue.com/
http://gran-plaza-cancun.com/#!/tiendas (The Walmart)
http://flamingo.com.mx/tiendas.html
I've been to other Mexican cities as well and found plenty of shopping.


ETA:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walmart_de_México_y_Centroamérica


If you don't like wiki:
http://corporate.walmart.com/our-story/our-business/international/walmart-mexico
http://corporate.walmart.com/our-story/locations/mexico#/mexico
ETA: Tiendas = stores.

Oooo they got a WalMart??? I'm booking the next plane!

More seriously though, that's nice and all but, those are stores you find at every major tourist destination. That's not what attracts them. Besides the wide variety of clothing shops and department stores, they come here for musical instruments, toys, computers and electronics and other consumer goods. Our stores stock a huge variety and quantity of the latest stuff from every major brand that is very hard to find in Mexico. Yes, you can buy all that in Mexico but your selection is limited, the price is higher and it's hard to find.

It seems pretty simple to me: if Mexico truly had everything we have here retail-wise, why would they come here and dump $4.5 billion on the border?

 

[Resume]

It seems pretty simple to me: if Mexico truly had everything we have here retail-wise, why would they come here and dump $4.5 billion on the border?

According to my friends, who just happen to live there, every metropolitan area has retail shops comparable to those in the U.S. This is my experience as well. You're seem to be intimating the county is some backwater and it isn't.

 

[xjx388]

According to my friends, who just happen to live there, every metropolitan area has retail shops comparable to those in the U.S. This is my experience as well. You're seem to be intimating the county is some backwater and it isn't.

Well, a lot of Mexico is extremely poor and thus, lacking in basic necessities. The oppressed poor, you know. But I very well know that there is retail in Mexico. As I've said many times, you can find stuff there. Computers? Aqui tenemos tus pinches computers!

I too have family and friends in Mexico. You should ask them why so many of their compatriots choose to bring their money to the US instead of to the apparently-amazing-and-ample retail outlets in Mexico where they can help create more jobs and help out those poor people they've been oppressing.

 

[The Don]

Well, a lot of Mexico is extremely poor and thus, lacking in basic necessities. The oppressed poor, you know.

I'm not sure anyone is arguing with you on this apart from showing that by objective international standards, wealth inequality in Mexico isn't vastly different to that in the U.S. and in this regard the U.S. is rather more like Mexico than it is Canada.

But I very well know that there is retail in Mexico.

...and yet you claimed that nowhere in Mexico had a retail environment to compare to a comparatively small U.S. border town. In light of the ample evidence in this thread, are you revising that opinion ?

As I've said many times, you can find stuff there. Computers? Aqui tenemos tus pinches computers!

I too have family and friends in Mexico. You should ask them why so many of their compatriots choose to bring their money to the US instead of to the apparently-amazing-and-ample retail outlets in Mexico where they can help create more jobs and help out those poor people they've been oppressing.

Is that the sound of goalposts being moved ?

The UK is overrun with all kinds of retail opportunities and yet whenever I go to the U.S. I buy all kinds of things. In part because things are sometimes cheaper over in the U.S. (although in the last 10 years we've noticed that this is less and less often the case), and in part because the concept of "men's tall" has yet to make it to the UK so I can sometimes find better fitting clothes over there.

I wouldn't use it as evidence that the UK is lacking in retail outlets any more than I'd use the fact that when relatives and friends come over to the UK, they leave with all kinds of things they cannot get or afford over in the US as evidence that there are no decent shops over there.

 

[Resume]

Well, a lot of Mexico is extremely poor and thus, lacking in basic necessities. The oppressed poor, you know. But I very well know that there is retail in Mexico. As I've said many times, you can find stuff there. Computers? Aqui tenemos tus pinches computers!

I too have family and friends in Mexico. You should ask them why so many of their compatriots choose to bring their money to the US instead of to the apparently-amazing-and-ample retail outlets in Mexico where they can help create more jobs and help out those poor people they've been oppressing.

Computadoras.

Yes, Mexico has poverty. They also have retail opportunities similar to those here, and they shop there. Do you imagine Wal-Mart Corp would open 249 supercenters there if there were no market?

 

[Dr. Keith]

But I doubt she would cross an international border and then remove tags/boxes etc to avoid import taxes just for the "deals" at an outlet. It would have to be a deal that would more than make up for the effort involved.

Yes, she would and has. We used to go to Mexico all the time to buy goods that were cheaper there, often with a truck and trailer. She has a home largely furnished with handmade items from south of the border. And we used to always bring back a gallon jug of Vanilla and a gallon jug of Kahlua. It was a nearly annual trip back when it was not so obviously violent.

But the point remains, such cross border shopping has always been a pimple on the butt of international trade.

ETA: And you really don't seem to grasp that the deals don't have to be overwhelmingly good to justify a shopping trip. Shopping is an activity that some people find rewarding no matter the financial implications. A post hoc rationalization that the variety or goods are better is common. My mother likely has outlet malls that are closer to her, but she goes to the same on every year because it has become an annual event.

 

[dudalb]

Too Bad General Pershing is not around to lead the charge into Mexico.....

 

[dudalb]

“I think your military is scared. Our military isn’t, so I just might send them down to take care of it.”

If Trump thinks the Mexican military is 'scared' maybe he thinks an invasion will be an easy and quick 'victory' to enhance his prestige as Commander in Chief.
After all he says he knows more than the generals.

Which is why, guaranteed, people at the Pentagon are terrified of Cheeto Mussolini.
Granted, the Mexican Military seems to be very ineefective...and there are constant scandals with high ranking Army officials being found to be on the Narcolords payoff list.
But a military incursion into Mexico would be a bloody disaster which would make Iraq look like a Sunday School Picnic.

 

[bruto]

The funny thing is that I imagine XJX388 has some point. I am quite willing to believe that this country is better off than Mexico in many ways, at least so far, and that there are good reasons why it's better to shop here than there. I simply find it difficult to fathom why a person who makes a plain error, a simple mis-statement of fact, cannot simply admit to having made a mistake, or having spoken immoderately.

It seems a characteristic these days of the prevalant conservatives, that they can never have made a mistake. An outrageous misstatement is excused as a joke, a contradiction of fact is excused as an alternative fact, or a victim of fake and biased news. And the funny thing is, of course, that the best match for this is the most doctrinaire Maoist communism. The doctrine is perfect. If something goes wrong, it's because of traitors and wreckers.

Welcome to the new age where lies are truth and the guardian of family values grabs your pussy.

 

[xjx388]

I'm not sure anyone is arguing with you on this apart from showing that by objective international standards, wealth inequality in Mexico isn't vastly different to that in the U.S. and in this regard the U.S. is rather more like Mexico than it is Canada.

As I corrected myself earlier, maybe wealth inequality isn't the right term. But I don't think anyone would argue that the average poor person in the US is much better off than the average poor person in Mexico. I'm talking about a living standards basis here; access to running water, stable shelter, access to food etc. And there is no doubt that poverty is much more widespread in Mexico than in the US.

...and yet you claimed that nowhere in Mexico had a retail environment to compare to a comparatively small U.S. border town. In light of the ample evidence in this thread, are you revising that opinion ?

Nope. I only said that in the places I have been and heard about, Mexico's retail does not compare to ours. I then presented evidence consisting of news reports with the testimony of the actual Mexican shoppers stating their reasons for coming here. Mexico has a retail environment; of course it does. Best Buy is in both Monterrey and San Luis Potosi, for example; I've been in those stores. I never said, "there is no retail shopping in Mexico." All I'm saying is that neither Monterrey or SLP compares to what is available in McAllen as far as price and selection. That's why these shoppers that cross the river to come shop here. It's not so easy to pop in to the local Best Buy and pick up the latest TVs at a reasonable price, then drive down the street to the Mall and buy all the latest clothes and luxury brands, then head on down a little more and find ... It just doesn't work like that in Mexico. That's what I'm saying. Price and variety that they can't get back home is the major reason they come here. This really shouldn't be controversial.

Is that the sound of goalposts being moved ?

No. My original point was less about how much shopping there is in Mexico and more about how scared the local economies are about losing the money and how I see a contradiction between their party affiliation and their willingness to benefit financially from an oppressive system.

The UK is overrun with all kinds of retail opportunities and yet whenever I go to the U.S. I buy all kinds of things. In part because things are sometimes cheaper over in the U.S. (although in the last 10 years we've noticed that this is less and less often the case), and in part because the concept of "men's tall" has yet to make it to the UK so I can sometimes find better fitting clothes over there.

I wouldn't use it as evidence that the UK is lacking in retail outlets any more than I'd use the fact that when relatives and friends come over to the UK, they leave with all kinds of things they cannot get or afford over in the US as evidence that there are no decent shops over there.

Of course not. But you might say something like, "The 'men's tall' shopping in the US is much better than in the UK." In the US-Mexico case, there's just more categories of shopping to include. And to be clear, I never said there were no decent shops in Mexico. There are because I've been to them. It's the price and variety where they just don't compare.

 

[xjx388]

Yes, she would and has. We used to go to Mexico all the time to buy goods that were cheaper there, often with a truck and trailer. She has a home largely furnished with handmade items from south of the border. And we used to always bring back a gallon jug of Vanilla and a gallon jug of Kahlua. It was a nearly annual trip back when it was not so obviously violent.

If you are shopping for stuff that is made in Mexico, of course you are going to go to Mexico if you can. Why would I buy a Talavera pot here for $45 when I can simply cross the border and pick one up for $20? We used to walk across all the time just to pick up Coke, candy, avocados, queso fresco, beer, liquor, etc. Why? Because they were cheaper and/or better quality than I could find on our side. And sure, we enjoyed Mexico and visited family as well. There are, as you say below, many motives for such shopping. But if the price, quality and selection weren't better than home we could have dispensed with the shopping. We sure as hell didn't buy milk, meat or electronics in Mexico.

But the point remains, such cross border shopping has always been a pimple on the butt of international trade.

ETA: And you really don't seem to grasp that the deals don't have to be overwhelmingly good to justify a shopping trip. Shopping is an activity that some people find rewarding no matter the financial implications. A post hoc rationalization that the variety or goods are better is common. My mother likely has outlet malls that are closer to her, but she goes to the same on every year because it has become an annual event.

I don't think it's always a post hoc rationalization. The avocados were certainly cheaper. The queso fresco just couldn't be found even in Laredo, Texas (now it can but that's relatively recent). I think it's similar with the reasons why the Mexicans come here to shop: sure, they can find similar things at home and they do enjoy visiting their families. But they aren't dumping $4.5 billion dollars here just because they are used to it; they come here for the prices, variety and quality.

 

[xjx388]

The funny thing is that I imagine XJX388 has some point.

Which I have only restated a few times so I can understand why you may have missed it.

I am quite willing to believe that this country is better off than Mexico in many ways, at least so far, and that there are good reasons why it's better to shop here than there. I simply find it difficult to fathom why a person who makes a plain error, a simple mis-statement of fact, cannot simply admit to having made a mistake, or having spoken immoderately.

I don't believe I've made an error. McAllen, Texas has a better retail environment in terms of price, quality and selection than just about anywhere in Mexico. I stand by that. A few links to some malls in Mexico City and Cancun is not great evidence against it. It's a strawman to say that I've argued that Mexico has no retail or that it doesn't have some of the same stuff as we do. I've only said that the retail environment in Mexico does not compare to that in even small cities like McAllen in terms of -say it with me- price, variety and quality.

It seems a characteristic these days of the prevalant conservatives, that they can never have made a mistake. An outrageous misstatement is excused as a joke, a contradiction of fact is excused as an alternative fact, or a victim of fake and biased news. And the funny thing is, of course, that the best match for this is the most doctrinaire Maoist communism. The doctrine is perfect. If something goes wrong, it's because of traitors and wreckers.

Welcome to the new age where lies are truth and the guardian of family values grabs your pussy.

OK, sure.

 

[Resume]

Which I have only restated a few times so I can understand why you may have missed it. I don't believe I've made an error. McAllen, Texas has a better retail environment in terms of price, quality and selection than just about anywhere in Mexico. I stand by that. A few links to some malls in Mexico City and Cancun is not great evidence against it. It's a strawman to say that I've argued that Mexico has no retail or that it doesn't have some of the same stuff as we do. I've only said that the retail environment in Mexico does not compare to that in even small cities like McAllen in terms of -say it with me- price, variety and quality.

McAllen TX? Mexico City is considered a world-class city and is in the top 25 most economically powerful cities in the work. Number 16 as a matter of fact, with an economic output of 315 billion dollars. Anything you can find in Paris (not Paris, TX) New York, Chicago or LA, you can find there.
https://theculturetrip.com/north-america/mexico/articles/8-shopping-malls-mexico-city/
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/top-lists/best-boutiques-in-mexico-city/

You're just mistaken.

 

[chrispy]

McAllen TX? Mexico City is considered a world-class city and is the top 25 most economically powerful cities in the work. Number 16 as a matter of fact, with an economic output of 315 billion dollars. Anything you can find in Paris (not Paris, TX) New York, Chicago or LA, you can find there.
https://theculturetrip.com/north-america/mexico/articles/8-shopping-malls-mexico-city/
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/top-lists/best-boutiques-in-mexico-city/

You're just mistaken.

Or in Oaxaca... Sure I might need to drive a bit, but as I have stated i did the same in LA for 15 years and Jersey for 15 years before that.

I get that he is taking about his experiences in the border cities/states, but to extrapolate that to the larger Mexico as a whole is a bit off the mark. Not piling on or saying he is wrong even, but taken as a whole it is a different thing all together and the amount of money spent on consumer goods in the US is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount spent on US made consumer goods here in Mexico Sorry for the run on sentence, it was stream of conscience.

 

[Resume]

Or in Oaxaca... Sure I might need to drive a bit, but as I have stated i did the same in LA for 15 years and Jersey for 15 years before that.

I get that he is taking about his experiences in the border cities/states, but to extrapolate that to the larger Mexico as a whole is a bit off the mark. Not piling on or saying he is wrong even, but taken as a whole it is a different thing all together and the amount of money spent on consumer goods in the US is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount spent on US made consumer goods here in Mexico Sorry for the run on sentence, it was stream of conscience.

I don't care what his experience is. If he thinks shopping in McAllen TX compares with the Palanco District (DF's Mag Mile, Fifth Ave, Rodeo Drive rolled into one) he's flat out wrong. As far as shopping in the pueblos, I'd imagine it resembles that in Ladysmith WI, Brush CO or Loose Gravel IA. Probably a bit more poverty-stricken, but no one is denying that.

 

[chrispy]

I don't care what his experience is. If he thinks shopping in McAllen TX compares with the Palanco District (DF's Mag Mile, Fifth Ave, Rodeo Drive) he's flat out wrong.

Reread. I agree with you!

 

[xjx388]

Let's just stipulate that I'm completely wrong about Mexican retail. I'll concede for the sake of argument that Mexican shopping is the equal of US shopping and thus, Mexican nationals have no economic reason to shop here as opposed to home. They don't need our stores.

Now explain why so many are compelled to cross the border on shopping tours, in big vans with multiple family members and to travel many hundreds of miles to do so. They aren't all visiting family or shopping while on business. Something compels them to spend billions of dollars in our economy as opposed to their own.

 

[Resume]

Let's just stipulate that I'm completely wrong about Mexican retail. I'll concede for the sake of argument that Mexican shopping is the equal of US shopping and thus, Mexican nationals have no economic reason to shop here as opposed to home. They don't need our stores.

No one said they don't cross-border shop. You said that "that the retail environment in Mexico does not compare to that in even small cities like McAllen in terms of -say it with me- price, variety and quality." which is demonstrably incorrect.

Now explain why so many are compelled to cross the border on shopping tours, in big vans with multiple family members and to travel many hundreds of miles to do so. They aren't all visiting family or shopping while on business. Something compels them to spend billions of dollars in our economy as opposed to their own.

Location, location, location. Convenience.

Also.

As far as shopping in the pueblos, I'd imagine it resembles that in Ladysmith WI, Brush CO or Loose Gravel IA. Probably a bit more poverty-stricken, but no one is denying that.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Let's just stipulate that I'm completely wrong about Mexican retail. I'll concede for the sake of argument that Mexican shopping is the equal of US shopping and thus, Mexican nationals have no economic reason to shop here as opposed to home. They don't need our stores.

Now explain why so many are compelled to cross the border on shopping tours, in big vans with multiple family members and to travel many hundreds of miles to do so. They aren't all visiting family or shopping while on business. Something compels them to spend billions of dollars in our economy as opposed to their own.

Did I miss the part of the thread where you provided evidence for this ?

Multi-family shopping vans spend billions here ? Really ?